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Sha

"We need to take back control" 'IN' or 'OUT' ?

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"We need to take back control" 'IN' OR 'OUT'?

After listening to countless debates by countless politicians the only things clearly obvious to me are that, typical of our politicians, they are ALL being liberal with their lies and sparse on the truth.

The Economy – It will suffer if we stay in - It will suffer if we opt out.
The real point here is WHO actually will suffer? This is really a competition between mega rich elite capitalist opponents. Whichever of them wins – will it actually make any difference to the ordinary person?
The only point that the two sides seem to agree on is that Britain has the 5th best economy in the world. So why do we need food banks? Why have we got millions of homeless? Why do we have pensioners dying of the cold in winter? Why have we got one of the worst pension rates in Europe? Why are we being fed all this garbage about ‘austerity’ and being expected to put up with ever increasing cuts in public services when we can clearly see that the mega rich have never had it so good. Look no further than our own town centre, - grandiose plans for ‘regeneration’, countless millions being spent on glass and metal monstrosities that we neither need nor want whilst at the same time massive cuts to public services! When we’ve already got numerous boarded up shops, why are they building more? Wouldn’t a couple of new hospitals in our town be more appropriate?

Whichever of the mega rich capitalist opponents wins in the ‘in’ or ‘out’ vote the wealth of the nation won’t be shared and the ordinary person will continue to lose.

Immigration.
This is the issue where the biggest lies are being told.
The truth is that as a nation with an ever increasing ageing population we do need some immigrant workers and these contribute to the nation’s wealth. However, we can only take so many, we don’t have housing, hospitals, schools or other public services to cope with an ever increasing intake and ever increasing numbers will certainly cause problems.
The biggest lie is that leaving Europe will solve the ‘immigration problem’.
What no-one is being honest about is that leaving Europe will not stem immigration – it could cut the numbers of European immigrant workers but it will not stem the flow of immigrants from outside Europe – in fact without the help of French restrictions at Calais we’ll most probably get a lot more!
The only realistic way to stop immigrants fleeing here from war torn or desperately poor countries is to stop causing wars and hardship in their homelands, ie. the mega rich capitalists should stop robbing other nations of their wealth and resources!

European Human Rights Laws.
These are being peddled as the source of all evil.
The fact is that for the ordinary person they grant us rights that the capitalist controllers would rather we didn’t have.
I’ve even heard people blame European Human Rights for ‘forcing’ us to take in asylum seekers, do they think leaving Europe will free us from the obligations of the International Declaration of Human Rights? – it most certainly won’t!

So, ‘in’ or ‘out’?
The current buzz phrases are ‘protect our democracy’ and ‘take back control’
.
What democracy? Democracy should mean freedom of choice. With every political party seeming to have the same objective of stamping on the common folk there’s little choice between them!  Until we have a voting system of proportional representation we won’t get politicians with an inclination to promote the common good so at present we have no real democracy to protect!

‘Take back control’ – for whom?  Whether ‘in’ or ‘out’ we the ordinary people will get no powers to control anything. Politically it’s either Dave or Boris and they, employing the historically used political tactic of having people on both sides of a conflict, are in a win situation whether ‘in’ or ‘out’. As if anyone really believes that these two bosom buddies are really in conflict!  Whoever wins will ensure the other is kept in clover!
 

So how could I decide whether to vote 'IN' or 'OUT'?
It’s probably the ‘control’ factor which is the deciding issue for me.

Any ‘face-less bureaucrat in Brussels’ who can curtail the control of the dictators we have in Britain is worth hanging on to.
Overall, it is the ordinary people of the great nations of Europe that I have real faith in. They will not allow worker’s rights to diminish, they will protect the poor, the old and the vulnerable, they will ensure their economies thrive and that they will get a share in the wealth their efforts create. They will remove leaders who do not do their bidding and they will knock their governments into shape. They will force their leaders to control immigration numbers to a manageable level. They will not allow the USA any powers to control their economy or their lives. All the ridiculous scaremongering tales being told are just that – ridiculous!

The other European peoples are more prone to revolution than the Brits – and their leaders know it – and the threat of uprisings is already apparent. Less apathetic and unrestricted by a centuries old class ridden subservience, it is the ordinary people of Europe that will fight for a fairer future for us all.
So this week I will vote ‘IN’ – because only in unity can ordinary folk have even any hope of ever gaining any control over their lives.

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If we do leave, and after the 4/7 years it will take us to get away from the bureaucracy, how much unemployment benefit will we need to pay for the out of work MEP's ?

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Thanks Sid. That provides a really good example of why we need the ordinary people of other European countries to do our fighting for us!

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Sha, they're all waiting for us to make the first move (as usual), then they'll pile in too !      8)

 

I thought Germany started it?

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The thing is, the debate on here has jumped through all the hoops, all possible stones have been unturned and some frankly horrid views expressed on both sides but I ask you all this, did anyone change their voting intentions because of anything they read or saw on this forum?  I would imagine not a lot if any.  

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Me,me, I did honest!! (no, only kidding :lol: :lol: :lol: )

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Me,me, I did honest!! (no, only kidding :lol: :lol: :lol: )

 

First they came for the Polish :wink:

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No, but if I hadn't had a view, you definitely would have changed it !    8)

 

Really?

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Really: your actually a boon, as your attitude merely causes your opposition to dig in deeper; something that will no doubt continue beyond this referendum.  8) btw: Sha, I'm really interested in exactly how we influence the EU, given that the Council of Ministers consists of about half a dozen givers, and the rest takers - no influence whatsoever.  8)

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Really: your actually a boon, as your attitude merely causes your opposition to dig in deeper; something that will no doubt continue beyond this referendum.  8)

 

is that you conceding defeat before the vote?  How wonderfully British Bulldog your spirit isn't

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I've decided to vote to stay in..... I was only kidding all along and I am really a complete Euro fanatic....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm a realist, and the reality is that the powerfull global interests that control world events, simply won't allow us to leave. I've just read an article on how we could finish up having yet another referendum, IF we vote to Leave on Thursday; so they're at it already.      8)

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Mind you.... the biggest question of all has to be.....where is Lt. Kije? has someone kidnapped him and locked him away until after polling day so he can't vote to stay in?? :)

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Time and time the stay campaigners have said that the UK should stay in and reform the EU. Being one of 28 how would that be achieved 

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............ btw: Sha, I'm really interested in exactly how we influence the EU, given that the Council of Ministers consists of about half a dozen givers, and the rest takers - no influence whatsoever.  8)

 

Britain has as much influence as any of the other 28 countries in the Council of Ministers. That seems fair enough to me.  

To block any decisions it only takes 4 countries to vote 'no'.  When it comes to more important decisions, such as what other countries are to be allowed membership a veto from any one country can block them.   

 

There's been a lot of scaremongering about Turkey gaining membership in the near future, Cameron has, on a number of occasions refused to answer the question "will Britain veto Turkey's membership?"  (He has in the past actually recommended Turkey's membership).

Austria, Greece, Cyprus, & Germany have indicated very strongly that they don't want Turkey in and will use their powers to veto. 

This is a prime example of why I actually prefer to have other countries influence our decisions.

 

If we come out of Europe what trade agreements will be forged between Britain and Europe?  Norway is 'out' and has to pay large tariffs to trade and also has had to agree to free movement of workers.

If Britain comes out will we be forced to have a similar deal? 

Also Britain could enter into private trade agreements with other countries - so what's to stop Cameron and Co entering into deals which include free movement of workers with Turkey?

 

It's no secret that there have been discussions with potential Asian / Chinese investors. These investors however do not want to be restricted by European workers rights etc.

I think the split in the Tory party re who's 'IN' and who's 'OUT' is basically just a division between whose interests are best placed should we 1) stay with Europe or 2) go for the Asian / Chinese investors.

 

Give Cameron & Co a free reign and in a few years this little Island could just be a mass of Asian / Chinese factories, filled with multi-national, multi-cultural low paid workers - the young Brits having emigrated to Europe!   

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Still no answer as to just how we influence opinion in this collection of self interest?  Believe the UK has been out-voted over 70 times to-date, on the Council of Ministers.  Turkey and the Balkan basket cases will join the club; will be given £billions to invest in new infrastructure on condition they comply with EU financial dictats - which at the moment means Germanic prudence and austerity, when the payback is due (as with Greece).  They will be allowed to share their unemployed with us and add further to the labour supply, forcing down wages and conditions.  The EU is no longer just an economic project, based on the flawed notion, that diverse economies can be unified; but is now a political project to create a United States of Europe; overriding the interests of it's constituent States - if this is the future you want, then vote Remain.    8)

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Still no answer as to just how we influence opinion in this collection of self interest?  Believe the UK has been out-voted over 70 times to-date, on the Council of Ministers.  Turkey and the Balkan basket cases will join the club; will be given £billions to invest in new infrastructure on condition they comply with EU financial dictats - which at the moment means Germanic prudence and austerity, when the payback is due (as with Greece).  They will be allowed to share their unemployed with us and add further to the labour supply, forcing down wages and conditions.  The EU is no longer just an economic project, based on the flawed notion, that diverse economies can be unified; but is now a political project to create a United States of Europe; overriding the interests of it's constituent States - if this is the future you want, then vote Remain.    8)

 

 

Britain has as much influence as any of the other 28 countries in the Council of Ministers. That seems fair enough to me.  

To block any decisions it only takes 4 countries to vote 'no'.  When it comes to more important decisions, such as what other countries are to be allowed membership a veto from any one country can block them.

 

 You state;   "the UK has been out-voted over 70 times to-date, on the Council of Ministers" . 

When I've got time I'll look all 70 of them up. - see which which ones I agree with. 

 

As for Turkey and the Balkans joining the EU, do you seriously think Austria, Germany, Greece & Cyprus (amongst others) are not going to veto their membership? -  Cameron wants Turkey 'IN' - this is one decision I am glad Britain will be out-voted on!

I think it's more likely we'll get mass immigration from these countries if we are OUT of Europe. 

 

Ob's when you look at all the self-interested ***** that are our present day politicians (all political parties included),  do you SERIOUSLY think that unrestricted power in their hands would be a good thing?

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If Merkel wanted us to be a team, she would have invited the young and unemployed from Spain, Greece, Portugal and other EU countries to fill her employee void, rather than encouraging the undocumented all and unidentifiable sundry to try their hand at crossing the Mediterranean and barging through Balkan countries uninvited causing untold chaos and mess. She has stirred right-wing politics in all those countries and cost them a fortune in the process. Just a thought.

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