EU - in or out?

[P J]

And Belgians, and at Dunkirk, we did lose.

[P J]

And Belgians, and at Dunkirk, we did lose.

ps. I have the might of Google ( well , the sites contained therein) , you have outdated books, game on.

[observer]

No you have to google, cos you basically haven't a clue, and it shows when you can't interpret what your reading. The Belgians surrendered prior to the French; the French surrendered following the battle of France, where Hitler forced them to sign the surrender in the same rail carriage, that the Germans surrendered in 1918. Meanwhile, the BEF was evacuated from Dunkirk, saving it to fight another day; defeat would have been their surrender, the majority escaped and Britain fought on until the Soviets diverted German resources and attention in June 41; and late but not least the vast resources of the USA were brought to bare in Dec 41, to eventually defeat Germany.  So fortunately for Europe, Britain didn't "quit".  

[Bazj]

a quitter Baz

 

The Trumpeteers were a group who sang a song called the Milky White Way

 

 

Or are we talking about some reference to Donald Trump?.... (He's an American by the way and doesn't have a vote in the UK Referendum)

[P J]

No you have to google, cos you basically haven't a clue, and it shows when you can't interpret what your reading. The Belgians surrendered prior to the French; the French surrendered following the battle of France, where Hitler forced them to sign the surrender in the same rail carriage, that the Germans surrendered in 1918. Meanwhile, the BEF was evacuated from Dunkirk, saving it to fight another day; defeat would have been their surrender, the majority escaped and Britain fought on until the Soviets diverted German resources and attention in June 41; and late but not least the vast resources of the USA were brought to bare in Dec 41, to eventually defeat Germany.  So fortunately for Europe, Britain didn't "quit".  

 

Do you honestly believe you are the only person on the planet with any knowledge of what happened at Dunkirk? Have you always been so arrogant?   I use Google as it is a wonderful reference to knowledge, you deny yourself this resource,  probably why you just repeat the same tosh over and over and over again ad nauseum. As for my lack of interpretation it would help if you stuck to factual arguments and not made up ones.   Go on, show me where I said that Britain had surrendered.  They quit the field at Dunkirk and were ferried back to Britain, along with French and Belgian troops.  Are you denying this is true?

[Davy51]

I think it should be labelled a tactical withdrawal in order to regroup & give the hun a bloody nose further down the line. Didn't Britain also accommodate several governments-in-exile too ?

 

I think it is a doing our forces a great disservice to criticise their retreat from Europe at Dunkirk. It is so easy to forget the suffering that many of our troops went through in both world wars ,standing up for the underdogs against the school yard bully.

[P J]

I think it should be labelled a tactical withdrawal in order to regroup & give the hun a bloody nose further down the line. Didn't Britain also accommodate several governments-in-exile too ?

 

I think it is a doing our forces a great disservice to criticise their retreat from Europe at Dunkirk. It is so easy to forget the suffering that many of our troops went through in both world wars ,standing up for the underdogs against the school yard bully.

 

I didn't criticise it, I merely pointed out that it occurred.  It was not a tactical withdrawal Davy, it was a rout.

[observer]

You said the UK "quit";  quitting the war and quitting a battlefield are two completely separate things, but nice to see you've modified your assertion. The French surrendered, we didn't. A "rout" involves a totally disorganized scattering of one's forces, Operation Dynamo was a planned and orderly evacuation of over 300,000 troops from under the noses of the Germans, so hardly a rout.     

[Davy51]

My Dad's family had a boat on the River Weaver that had been involved in the organised evacuation before they bought it. It even had a plaque on board to commemorate the occasion. I don't know if that qualifies as evidence, but i expect to be advised accordingly.

[P J]

Since your pathetic gag regarding the French in 1940 here are all my posts,  please find and point out where I said the British army quit .

 

Arm in arm with the British who also had to flee.

 

 

Oh dear oh dear, the French,Belgians  and the BEF retreated in 1940, never heard of the flotilla of small boats.  Here you go, Google is your friend, it points the way to facts.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

 

 

And Belgians, and at Dunkirk, we did lose.

 

 

Do you honestly believe you are the only person on the planet with any knowledge of what happened at Dunkirk? Have you always been so arrogant?   I use Google as it is a wonderful reference to knowledge, you deny yourself this resource,  probably why you just repeat the same tosh over and over and over again ad nauseum. As for my lack of interpretation it would help if you stuck to factual arguments and not made up ones.   Go on, show me where I said that Britain had surrendered.  They quit the field at Dunkirk and were ferried back to Britain, along with French and Belgian troops.  Are you denying this is true?

 

I said they quit the field at Dunkirk, I never said they quit the war. Have you never heard the phrase before? I actually said "flee" initially  the opposite of which is to stay.  Did they stay?   If they didn't quit the field, did they stay and get slaughtered?  Of course they retreated after being swept back to the sea.  The German army chased from the Continent of Europe  not only the BEF but over 140000 Polish, French and Belgian troops so as I said, they fled arm in arm with the French.  Are you denying this?  

 

The BEF left the following equipment behind in France, much of it to be recycled by the German Army -

 2,472 guns
 63,879 vehicles
 20,548 motorcycles
 76,097 tons of ammunition
 416,940 tons of stores

 68,111 men of the BEF were captured or killed during Blitzkrieg, retreat and evacuation

 

but it wasn't a rout. lmao

 

 

p.s.  Were the Poles stealing English jobs back then too?

[P J]

My Dad's family had a boat on the River Weaver that had been involved in the organised evacuation before they bought it. It even had a plaque on board to commemorate the occasion. I don't know if that qualifies as evidence, but i expect to be advised accordingly.

Are you on medication?

[observer]

Operation Dynamo was an organized evacuation that saved over 300,000 trained soldiers to fight another day, and eventually to land in Normandy to retake Europe.  Losses in equipment can be replaced, often with more modern variants, so no big deal.  As for the French that were evacuated, not all joined the Free French, many returned to Vichy France. Can't see the correlation between the Poles in 1940, who were brave allies and the Poles today who are just economic migrants; we may owe the Grandads a debt of gratitude, but there is no entitlement for that gratitude to be inherited by their grandsons. Still, keep googling, you may learn something, but may not retain it !  

[P J]

The evacuation was a success, the action which led to it was an absolute disaster.  It was a rout.  The ONLY thing I said was that the French fled arm in arm with the British as you had made another of your boring , snide swipe at anything forrin. If you wish to see Dunkirk and the BEF as a gallant victory then crack on ,  it makes you out to be a deluded revisionist with no grip on reality.

 

 

 We owe the Polish workers of today a debt of gratitude for keeping the wheels of industry turning in this country and for paying your pension.

[observer]

More naïve tosh.   Well history records it as "the miracle of Dunkirk"; but as Churchill said at the time "victory isn't won by evacuations" BUT, the fact 300,000 trained soldiers were brought back to fight another day, can be viewed as a miracle. So not revisionism, far from it, mainstream history; although your luvvie mates who try to denigrate any British achievement will no doubt try to revise it.  As for your further delusions about owing self seeking economic migrants anything, we don't owe them a thing, they are getting higher rates of pay than they do in Poland, which is the sole reason they are here.    

[Davy51]

The evacuation was a success, the action which led to it was an absolute disaster.  It was a rout.  The ONLY thing I said was that the French fled arm in arm with the British as you had made another of your boring , snide swipe at anything forrin. If you wish to see Dunkirk and the BEF as a gallant victory then crack on ,  it makes you out to be a deluded revisionist with no grip on reality.

 

 

 We owe the Polish workers of today a debt of gratitude for keeping the wheels of industry turning in this country and for paying your pension.

 

 

And this from a denier of Eastern European immigration to the UK.

[P J]

More naïve tosh.   Well history records it as "the miracle of Dunkirk"; but as Churchill said at the time "victory isn't won by evacuations" BUT, the fact 300,000 trained soldiers were brought back to fight another day, can be viewed as a miracle. So not revisionism, far from it, mainstream history; although your luvvie mates who try to denigrate any British achievement will no doubt try to revise it.  As for your further delusions about owing self seeking economic migrants anything, we don't owe them a thing, they are getting higher rates of pay than they do in Poland, which is the sole reason they are here.    

 

That is absolute comedy and I thank you for the resulting hilarity, I needed a good laugh.  They lost, they retreated, they lost tens of thousands of lives, most of their supplies and equipment  and here is the kicker, the "miracle of Dunkirk" was that so many survived.  No victory, many brave actions but the fact remains that British and French and Belgian and Polish  troops in 1940 were pushed back to the sea by a far superior German army and were fortunate to escape with their lives.  Revising the BEF as anything but a military failure is pathetic and a myth.

[P J]

And this from a denier of Eastern European immigration to the UK.

I have never denied that EU migrants come to Britain you plonker, I simply accept the role they play in our industrial success and their contributions to the nations coffers.  Pull your head out of your arse and smell the truth instead of the usual stench.

[observer]

Not that you would know, but the number one priority of any military commander is to maintain a force in being. Defeat is when that force no longer exists, or moral is exhausted beyond any capacity to maintain the struggle. George Washington knew it, so did Mao Tse Tung   etc:   Defeat in a battle doesn't correlate to defeat in war, not that you'd understand - get the dolls back out of the Wendy House.       

[P J]

Not that you would know, but the number one priority of any military commander is to maintain a force in being. Defeat is when that force no longer exists, or moral is exhausted beyond any capacity to maintain the struggle. George Washington knew it, so did Mao Tse Tung   etc:   Defeat in a battle doesn't correlate to defeat in war, not that you'd understand - get the dolls back out of the Wendy House.       

 

Please tell me when I mentioned defeat in war.  You are simply making up your own arguments and answering them.  That isn't the behaviour of a rational person.  You ought to seek professional help.

 

I can't wait until the 14th October when we can all celebrate Harolds astounding victory over William at Hastings         

[observer]

But if you go back - I made a quip alluding to the French "quitting" the war by surrendering; you immediately tried to imply the UK quit too - actual word "flee".  So the whole basis of this nonsense, a usual, derives from semantics. I associated quitting with surrender as quitting the war. I realise your on strange ground, but defeat in a battle doesn't automatically mean defeat in a war; and in the case of the UK in 1940, certainly didn't.  

[P J]

You never mentioned surrender, that came afterwards when `I had the audacity to state fact instead of myth.Did the BEF flee France, and at the same time did French troops also flee to Britain?  That is all I said but you went off on a huge nationalistic tangent ( for a change lol)

 

Having a good laugh though, you are backtracking quicker than the BEF.

[observer]

Your just falling back on wishfull thinking now; "flee" which you then clarified as "rout"; are one and the same; just in case it's not going in, Operation Dynamo was an organized evacuation, with young men standing in columns, up to their waists in sea water, patiently waiting to be picked up by the RN and a flotilla of small boats; whilst being bombed by Stukas. I've watched the newsreel/documentary films enough to know, perhaps you can do the same and learn something for a change.    

[P J]

I have and I know that many thousands of them were killed.  Tell me this , as it was such a success all round, how did they become stranded up to their necks in water at the mercy of German bombing raids?  How did they end up needing evacuating?  Were they alone or accompanied by French and others? Who and what were they fleeing?  Therein lies the truth.

[observer]

The success was in getting them out at all; failiure to extract such trained soldiers would have been a disaster of much greater proportion. They finished up in that position because, contrary to the views of the French High Command, the Germans had the audacity to attack with armour through the "impenetrable" Ardennes; overwhelm second rate French troops defending the Allied centre along the Meuse River, then swing round to cut off the Northern Army Group which included the BEF. With only ten Divisions, the BEF weren't likely to hold off the Germans on their own. So thankfully, they were extricated at Dunkirk to fight another day.

[P J]

The success was in getting them out at all; failiure to extract such trained soldiers would have been a disaster of much greater proportion. They finished up in that position because, contrary to the views of the French High Command, the Germans had the audacity to attack with armour through the "impenetrable" Ardennes; overwhelm second rate French troops defending the Allied centre along the Meuse River, then swing round to cut off the Northern Army Group which included the BEF. With only ten Divisions, the BEF weren't likely to hold off the Germans on their own. So thankfully, they were extricated at Dunkirk to fight another day.

 

so they quit the field, fled to the sea and were then extracted, along withFrench soldiers, back to Blighty.  Isn't that just about what I said?

 

That is when the myth building and understandable wartime propaganda machine began its spin.

 

here is a link to n interesting read.

 

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10905