EU - in or out?

[observer]

Where do you get this "have to" from. As an independent Nation, we would be at liberty to conclude trading relations with any or all countries, based on our own best interests; which would basically not require the visa less entry into the UK, of every Tom, Richard or Mohammed. Where do you get this nonsense that the US or China would ignore selling their goods in the UK market ?  Pure fiction & speculation. Where do you get this nonsense that suddenly, the French or other Europeans would suddenly lose their taste for British food & other products ?  Does this come after the apocalypse ?     

[Lt Kije]

America and China have already said they wouldn't be interested, the only Country that supports your stand is Russia, You can only get a trade deal with a country if they want one, the two biggest economies in the Worlds have publicly stated they don't want one with us on our own.

[observer]

So your trying to tell us that a market of over 60 million will be ignored by China and the US ? Buisiness has no God but profit, and profit comes from sales, so no way will the UK market be ignored by anyone.

[Davy51]

Aren't we already involved with EFTA ? We were in that organisation before the Common Market came along.

 

As for trade agreements,there are countries & governments in this world which are happy to supply, for economic purposes, arms to terrorists  who i suspect are not in the EU either.

[Lt Kije]

So your trying to tell us that a market of over 60 million will be ignored by China and the US ? Buisiness has no God but profit, and profit comes from sales, so no way will the UK market be ignored by anyone.

I"m not they themselves are Obs

[Lt Kije]

Davy EFTA, is basically the Norway option, and as just over 50% of our trade is with the EU, despite what Obs says it's the option that is most likely to happen if we leave, Ask someone sane in the out camp, not Obs as he lives in is own little world, and is not on the same planet as everyone else

[observer]

    tut tut !   At least I don't have to base my argument on speculation and fear; the facts about the EU experience are there for all to see; the net cost to the UK, the waste and corruption of the Brussels gravy train, the incompetance of it's beaurocracy  etc etc.  So let's talk about what has been or is; rather than guessing about the future.      btw: the EU doesn't appear to be helping "inward investment" at Port Talbot; in fact quite the opposite; their rules forbid the UK Gov to step in to save our steel industry.

[Milky]

The people who come from Poland and other EU countries are far more likely tp emigrate then these from Pakistan and Iraq, so if you stopped EU immigration tomorrow then the immigration rates would remain high.

 

Trade, Iceland has a trade deal with China, so why would China not be interested in dealing with the UK. If you ask me it would be a good thing if the UK did not deal with China, far better to deal with India, Brazil and other countries.

 

Will leaving the EU reduce red tape. One of the main arguments for leaving the EU is that it will free up businesses from regulation and red tape.

 

I have worked in logistics industry and over the years the uK have signed up to every single EU rule going, whether they had to or not. The rules seemed to be enforced here far more then in other EU countries. In education and in the NHS there are very few directives from the EU yet both systems are creaking under the strain of red tape, the UK tax system is the most complected in the world.

So are we really going to ditch all these rules.

Which EU country has a Cola tax?

[Lt Kije]

Fear, no that's just the outs campaign trying to white wash the argument as they can't cover the fact that economically we are better in, as small,medium and large companies want to stay in, in fact they are finding it difficult in all areas, so they just resort to its fear!????

 

Port Talbot, our government do not want to upset the Chinese, who we both agree are dumping, they are dependent on the Chinese for money for a new nuclear power station, they could intervene as other eu governments have, but that would take political will, which this government don't have.

 

Your argument smacks of desperation Obs, had you forgot that we you admitted on here the Chinese were dumping????

[observer]

As I said years ago, the "IN" campaign would be based on project fear, trying to "scare the pants"  off the electorate;  with wild speculative arguments and assumptions, about the future. Meanwhile, all the incompetence and waste of the EU beaurocracy is ignored. Small and medium companies are ticked off with Brussels red tape, so can't see where you get "all" companies from.   So, we are "dependent" on "the Chinese" not the EU ?   Which perhaps underlines the fact that economics are now global not restricted to Continents. Of course the Chinese are "dumping" steel, because they have over-capacity as their economy slows, and are prepared to subsidise it to undercut the rest and monopolise the market; but we are not allowed to protect our National Industries with subsidies due to EU rules. Alas, with no defence of the EU's record past and present, just scaremongering about the future; tis you who are desperate.

[Lt Kije]

What fear would that be Obs?

List them and I will rip them apart one by one

[Davy51]

It seems to me that,with the impending demise of Port Talbot steel plant, that Britain is heading headlong towards a manufacturing wasteland. Over the last 50 years our heavy industry has disappeared & we are dependant on countries that were once dependant on us. It is even being mentioned that the government may have to step in to save the plant.

It is ok all this buying from abroad because it is cheaper ,but there is more to managing an economy than cutting jobs to keep costs down. There are times when it is more important to keep money circulating within our own economy to provide jobs, increase spending power & keep benefit payments down. Keeping people in work may be necessary at times.

[Milky]

What fear would that be Obs?

List them and I will rip them apart one by one

 

The EU is a stagnant system whose economy is failing, the only country that has benefited from the EU is Germany and possibly Poland.

 

If the EU economy continues the way it is going there will be no one to trade with. Both Norway and Switzerland do well outside the EU, while Norway in theory has to implement eu rules Switzerland does not.

 

Both Norway and Switzerland trade with China and USA

[Lt Kije]

Take alook again at Swizerland ????,

Switzerland stopped the free movement, but are just about to be fined by the EU, and will be re instating it, you will find like Norway they have to abide by most rules, including free movement

[Lt Kije]

Norway pays money to the EU to gain access to the single market, they also have to abide by Europe rules and directives, with no say on them as they are not a member state, taken as per head of population, Norway pays more money into the EU than the UK does, that is the EFTA option, being in EFTA we would still be subject to the free movement of labour, bring immigration into the debate is stupid, also EU citizens pay more into our system than they take out!

[Milky]

Take alook again at Swizerland ,

Switzerland stopped the free movement, but are just about to be fined by the EU, and will be re instating it, you will find like Norway they have to abide by most rules, including free movement

Wrong, Switzerland and Norway agreed to join the free movement of people.

 

Norway pays money to the EU to gain access to the single market, they also have to abide by Europe rules and directives, with no say on them as they are not a member state, taken as per head of population, Norway pays more money into the EU than the UK does, that is the EFTA option, being in EFTA we would still be subject to the free movement of labour, bring immigration into the debate is stupid, also EU citizens pay more into our system than they take out!

 

Provide fact please.

 

As far as I know Norway does not pay anything to the EU, they pay to the EEA and pay about €550 per year. Norway have implemented about 18% of the EU directives that the UK has, UK brings into law about 3000 directives per year, Norway also maintains a large representative office in Brussels to ensure that its concerns are heard when the legislation is being proposed.

 

And what about the failing economy of the EU?

[Lt Kije]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

 

Can give you more if you want????

[Lt Kije]

http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2011/05/why-britain-leaving-the-eu-for-the-eea-or-efta-will-not-solve-any-of-the-anti-eu-crowds-complaints/

[observer]

Well Kije, it seems your as gullible as the EU Mandarins. Try "ripping these apart":-  1) We are a net contributor to the EU; IE we pay more in than we get out. 2) The EU has completely failed to prevent over a million illegal migrants entering Europe; didn't even enforce it's adopted policy (Dublin Convention) followed by Merkel's unilateral suspension of the policy. 3) The Euro zone has failed - EG Greece. 4) We have the total absurdity of transfering the whole administration of the EU Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg and back - to appease French interests. 5) We have the CAP designed to protect inefficient French farmers and the nonsense of payments to farmers to leave fields fallow. 6) The auditors have refused to sign off on EU accounts for over a decade.       As for your constant reference to EFFTA, as if we would be compelled to accept "free movement", that's just total conjecture; all or any trade agreement is just that, an agreement, based on mutual self interest, so we wouldn't (assuming we have Govs with gonads), agree to any agreement that included "free labour movement". We are not allowed to make trade agreements as an individual Nation, but via the EU; outside the EU we would make our own arrangements with other nations.  So if you can avoid the threats of an apocalypse and actually try and find some beneficial aspects to EU membership; I'd be interested.      

[Lt Kije]

1/ yes we are a net contributed, but being in the EU, brings investment into this country, as companies build factories here and provide jobs to people to gain access to the single market. So we get back more than we put in as it provides jobs, people with jobs pay taxes

 

2 The Dublin treaty was forced on the southern states by the northern states, it never foresaw what was going to happen, the southern states and I include Italy, simply cannot cope with the numbers, being honest Obs, nobody saw this coming, we are seeing the biggest movement of people since world war 2, being in the EU helps because the issue is simply to big for one nation to sort out, your option would be to shut your eyes and hope the problem goes away, it won't you know that already, more chance of getting a solution within the EU, not being in the EU will not get rid of the people of Calais, infact it might get worse as the camps could be here instead of Calais.

3/ the euro zone has not failed, I would agree with you that Greece should not have been there in the first place, but things are starting to get better, and look at Spain and Ireland who took the medicine and both economies are now back in growth, and anyway we are not in the euro!

4 I agree with you

5/ our farmers like the EU, as farming in the Lake District,Wales and most of Scotland depend in the money they get along with slot of French farmers, most of our farmers want to stop in. But I would say it does need reform, but you need to look st how many British farmers depend on that subsidy Obs, it's a lot, hence most want to stay in

6 you are wrong!

7 all EFTA countries must accept free movement, check for yourself

8 America and China have both publicly stated that they would not be untrested in a trade deal with the U.K. On its own, many countries to many to list have said we are better in, the only country that says getting out would be better is Russia.

 

Just one other thing, the EU wants to increase tariffs on Dumped Chinese steel, one of the countries that oppose this move is the UK, odd don't you think, our government seem to like the Chinese more than they like the Welch????

[Milky]

http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2011/05/why-britain-leaving-the-eu-for-the-eea-or-efta-will-not-solve-any-of-the-anti-eu-crowds-complaints/

 

Unless I read this wrong if we had the same deal as Norway  (Norway pays more then Iceland and Switzerland pay) we would be paying 2 billion, how much do we pay now?

 

 3) The Euro zone has failed - EG Greece.

 

ie most of Europe as it is stagnant.

[Lt Kije]

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Who-pays-for-the-EU-and-how-much-does-it-cost-the-UK-Disentangling-fact-from-fiction-in-the-EU-Budget-Professor-Iain-Begg.pdf

 

Long read

[observer]

1) So that's a yes. No but; any money that comes from the EU to the UK is our own money being recycled, less a cut for the EU Mandarins and the recently joined spongers.  2) Again a yes. but with another pathetic excuse, the whole idea behind the Shengen and Dublin Agreement was to STOP illegal entry into the EU AT THE POINT OF ENTRY; meaning that border Countries would stop migrants and house them in processing camps, returning any that fail an asylum application. The border nations (Italy and Greece) didn't STOP any, but allowed them to wonder through; then Fuhrer Merkel unilaterally suspended the Dublin agreement and invited the exodus to Germany, so much for policies and agreements. 3) The Euro has failed, basically because it requires unified political control which hasn't quite been achieved - yet.  4) WOW !  5) Again, farming subsidies are OUR monies being recycled; all such funding could be made directly by a UK Government at less cost, without the EU. 6) Oh no I'm not !  EU auditors have found glaring inconsistencies in the audit trails of EU funding to net consumer States, the estimates of money lost through corruption runs into millions, hence the auditors refusal to sign off. 7) If we "have" to accept "free movement" with any organisation, we simply don't join it - simple. Totally inconceivable: no trading nation would not trade with a market of over 60 million, it's about profits and sales.  Just one other thing: the EU "wants to increase tariffs on dumped Chinese Steel" :  If we had Governments that put British interests first (as in "we're all in it together") the British steel industry would be nationalised as a strategic industry and bailed out - just like the Banks. EU rules forbid such aid, unless your Italy or Germany, then you can ignore such rules, like many others.  Part of the reason for our expensive steel is the green taxes on energy  imposed by the EU, something the Chinese don't have a problem with - they just wear smog masks in Beijing !  

[Lt Kije]

How much inward investment (jobs) does the UK get for being in the EU Obs.

 

Where would you build your factory in the UK with 60 million customers, or in the EU with 506 million customers, the answer is obvious isn't it, you build your factory in the biggest market, simple economics. We gain jobs from being in the EU. put a cost on that, It pays to be in

 

 

Would you have us wear masks?

 

This might help you

http://www.britishinfluence.org/it_s_the_british_media_that_needs_auditing

[Lt Kije]

The Dublin treaty was never ever going to stop the biggest movement of people since WW2 Obs, as you well know, and what is your solution, or have you not got one, Shut the border make it someone else's problem, well that is not a solution is it.