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Tories out to wreck NHS ?

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Seems the Gov intend to impose a new contract on Junior Doctors; but as contracts are a matter of mutual agreement between employer and employee, what will the Gov do if Doctors refuse to sign up to the new contract? Sack them? With already a shortage of Doctors in the NHS, even a small percentage of Doctors leaving to pursue their careers in the US, Canada or Australia; the current plight of the NHS can only become even worse. So: is this political dogma on the part of the Gov, an intention to wreck the NHS, and open the door to total privatisation?

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Your statements about contracts isn't correct Obs... contracts are drawn up by an employer, not the employee. If you apply for a job as a bus driver and the bus company offer you the job, they tell you what hours, what buses etc you are going to be doing. You don't say, "well I don't work Fridays and I don't drive double Deckers"....

 

Only when a contract is to be changed can consultation be made with staff and yes, what the government are trying to do with the doctors is terrible and wrong, but there are no more doctors to pull out of the hat...

 

Even if the NHS were privatised, what then? There won't be anymore doctors than there are now and they are hardly going to be offering massive pay rises in comparison to what they are getting now anyway

 

It is all one big balls up

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But the employee has a choice, take it or leave it.  The contrived obsession with 7 day provision, would naturally entail increased premium payment for week-end work; it would also reduce staffing on week-days, given a finite number of staff. Yes there are problems with the NHS in terms of inefficiency, areas of over-manning and under-manning, and expensive procurement and waste, expansion into non-essential treatments etc.. But these are issues for professional managers NOT politicians; and it's time the NHS became an arms length organisation, independent of Gov interference. It is frankly an obscenity to lose indigenous staff, when we're crying out for more.  :cry:

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We know there are temptations for doctors to move abroad or join the private sector but i wonder if tuition fees have played any part in the availability of potential recruits.

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There is a strong case here for constructive dismissal if doctors choose to resign over the enforced changes.  Also, no need to go abroad as Scotland and Wales are both keen to offer training posts in their hospitals.  You knew it would come to this if you voted this shower in yet you still did.  Happy now any Tory voters?

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There wouldn't be a case for constructive dismissal unfortunately. Junior doctors work on a 6 month rolling contract which means that their contracts can be changed at any point, hence the reason why the changes are due to come in during August because that is the next time the contracts are renewed.... from what I heard on radio 4 today anyway

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If they can prove that they are worse off under the new contract then its grounds for constructive dismissal.  I heard that on the same programme.  Ask yourself this,  someone is lying,  do you believe 53000 doctors or Jeremy Hunt?

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Frankly I think this is the Gov's biggest gaff to-date and will have major electoral repercussions for them. Remember their pre-election promise - " the NHS is safe in our hands" ?

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I keep hearing that the public are backing the doctors. Well I'm a member of the public and I'm with the Government. The doctors have got too big for their boots. I worked in an industry where seven day working was the norm - which meant Saturdays and Sundays were normal working days and the rate of pay was the same as for the other days. And in an emergency, if that meant actually working seven days in a week, that was too bad.  Doctors have a privileged position in society. They have wonderful career prospects even if they are not particularly well paid in their early days. The Government has made a number of compromises (which in my opinion they shouldn't have made) and still the doctors are behaving more like a crowd of layabouts than professional people. They are supposed to have a sense of vocation, but they are not showing much of it at the moment.

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I think the main problem with the NHS is the glut of well paid management & administration jobs that are soaking up funds that should be getting used at the sharp end. Get the GP crisis sorted out whereby  the number of patients seen is not governed by an appointment system & if doctors become more accessible by way of the old walk in system then a lot of pressure will be taken off hospitals & their staff.

 

We seem to hear a lot about tired doctors. Is this new contract supposed to give them shorter hours because weekend work will be covered by a roster instead of overtime?

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 But these are issues for professional managers NOT politicians; and it's time the NHS became an arms length organisation, independent of Gov interference. It is frankly an obscenity to lose indigenous staff, when we're crying out for more.  :cry:

So you're calling for NHS privatisation Obs? Not like you :lol:

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Nope Asp: "nationalised" industries don't require direct involvement/interference by politicians; they would be run by "Boards" of people with some expertise - hopefully. :wink:    Whenever you get a group of workers in dispute, you always get other "workers" with less generous conditions, wanting to pull them down to their level.  If folk are expected to work "unsocial hours", they are right to expect premium payments for week-ends and bank holidays or to have it recognised in their shift differentials. Whilst I realise, in an age of Dickensian exploitation of young ignorant workers, with zero hour contracts etc; it may appear strange to see a group of workers actually standing up for their rights. We also live in a world of obscene pay rises for bosses, celebs and politicians, and the tax avoidance by the exploiters, and little is said or done about it. Seems the NHS will now be haemorrhaging  much needed staff to Scotland and Wales, and the rest of the World, having cost the tax-payer £350,000 to train. The whole issue is based on the notion that a finite number of staff can be spread over 7 days, without a consequent reduction in staffing per day. If we want more staff, working less hours for safety reasons, we need to train more and retain them, which will inevitably cost more.

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Egbert chooses to believe the word of a career politician who has failed in previous Government office above that off tens of thousands of Doctors who every day, including the weekend and through the night, see exactly what the impact of this political and dogmatic proposal will do to the levels and quality of care within the whole NHS.  I hope Egbert gets ill and needs an operation, I hope when he pitches up it is cancelled as there is now a shortage of doctors.  I hope he is sent home to ponder his stupidity.  Perhaps with the money the Government saves from this enforced contract they could employ many more morgue attendants.

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  I hope Egbert gets ill and needs an operation, I hope when he pitches up it is cancelled as there is now a shortage of doctors.  I hope he is sent home to ponder his stupidity.  .

 Is that your version of dealing with someone who disagrees with you?

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  I hope Egbert gets ill and needs an operation, I hope when he pitches up it is cancelled as there is now a shortage of doctors.  I hope he is sent home to ponder his stupidity.  .

but if he has bupa cover or the like then that will never happen will it.

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but if he has bupa cover or the like then that will never happen will it.

 

you need to be referred by your NHS doctor to BUPA

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The Tories have never had any great success with the NHS (remember Andrew Lansey?); cos basically they don't believe in it,  Having said that, Labour's attempts haven't been too bright either with Andy Burnham's tinkering with GP's services. So instead of these regular dogma generated changes inflicted by politicians, it would seem better to do something radical and actually ask the public just what they want from the NHS they own, pay for and use. Once the parameters of service levels are established, based on majority expectations; this would need to be married to the expected (and no doubt increased) costs. A clear mission statement would then be established for an independent Board of Directors to start running the organisation in the most efficient and cost effective manner, without further political interference.  :unsure:

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I think for a start it should free from political influence & run like it used to be, a customer focussed public service. No doubt the ultimate goal is a private health service but that idea needs to be nipped in the bud asap.

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Thank you for your good wishes, PJ.  You will be disappointed to know that both I and my wife have, over the years had serious, life-threatening conditions and have received excellent service from the NHS.  I have nothing but admiration for NHS doctors WHEN THEY ARE WORKING.  I have also had extensive experience of private medicine and have found it to be vastly inferior to the NHS.   The point I was making is that the doctors should not be striking. There are no circumstances in which a doctor should strike. They should find some other way of resolving their dispute.  And as I say, they have a privileged position in society and wonderful career opportunities.

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"They should find some other way of resolving their dispute" - please advise Eggy?   The matter has been to ACCAS, but with no mandatory powers, to impose a solution, no resolution was agreed.  The problem is, that in our 21st century world of digital speed; we rely on 19th century political and constitutional structures. The only valid arbiter of such disputes should be the people; but their only opportunity to pronounce judgement on issues occurs every 4 or 5 years at an election, when they usually have a choice of the lesser evil. In order to put ordinary people into the framework, after all it's the "people" who should own ultimate power; why not introduce a system of Grand Juries, to decide on such issues where an impasse occurs?  There's also the issue of devolved powers;  if 1 million Welsh folk and 5 million Scots have powers over their NHS, why should 50 million English not have similar devolved powers, so that the 7 million folk in the N/West for example can manage their own NHS?  We're basically stuck with the anachronistic Westminster model, which with the flight of powers to Brussels, clings on to every vestige of domestic power it can, rather than devolving it?    :unsure:

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 You will be disappointed to know that both I and my wife have, over the years had serious, life-threatening conditions and have received excellent service from the NHS.  I have nothing but admiration for NHS doctors WHEN THEY ARE WORKING.  I have also had extensive experience of private medicine and have found it to be vastly inferior to the NHS.   The point I was making is that the doctors should not be striking. There are no circumstances in which a doctor should strike. They should find some other way of resolving their dispute.  And as I say, they have a privileged position in society and wonderful career opportunities.

 

I find you to be a ridiculous and ill informed hypocrite Egbert.  The junior doctors are not some militant bunch given to walking out at the drop of a hat, its about 40 years since they last struck. Even though they were on strike and that 98% of them voted to do so they still had the compassion and decency to cover ALL emergency operations.  They can see the consequences of this career politicians proposals on the entire NHS, something you, who have only ever benefited from the service rather than contributed, cannot see.  Hunt has written about his ideas for privatising the national health service at length, he has manufactured this situation deliberately in order to impose his political vision on what he sees as a drain on the economy rather than a vital service for the people.  Over 200,000 people have signed a petition to have the canker removed from office.  Quite how anyone with a single brain cell can think an anti NHS career politician who has already been held up for nepotism, fiddling expenses, and being crap at his job as Culture Secretary knows how best to run a hospital is beyond me.  You prefer to trust this man than the very people you say saved yours and your wifes  lives.  That disgusts me.  I hope your illness recurs and you need an op but sadly it won't be cancelled as no serious or emergency operations were cancelled during the strike as well you know.  

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