China syndrome !

[Bazj]

Yep all the fault of the EU

 

So finally you have seen the light PJ..... another convert to the true cause then

[Coffee]

The Chinese would be dumping the steel if we were not in the EU too, . How ever it is interesting to hear that the EU Green tax (that only the UK seem to charge) is a factor according to the steel producers. I guess it is greener to bring steel from China then produce it locally.

 

Note that maybe that the UK is touting for Chinese contracts and money, don't want to rock the boat!

[observer]

Errm nope Coff; an independent UK could employ tariffs, as indeed the EU already do, but apparently not in the case of steel. True, the dangerous experiment with renewable energy, has increased our energy costs.

[Davy51]

I think maybe hiving off our energy industry to various private companies has also increased the cost of energy to the UK & no doubt this latest jaunt with our oriental friends will be signed off on a contract with more than a passing resemblance to a ransom note.

[P J]

So finally you have seen the light PJ..... another convert to the true cause then

Yes I see it now, everything bad in the world is because Britain is a part of the EU and everything good in the world is despite it.  Laughable really, so simple, merely leave the EU and life will be a bowl of cherries for everyone.  How could I have been so blind?  I am like Saul on the road to Damascus.

[P J]

Errm nope Coff; an independent UK could employ tariffs, as indeed the EU already do, but apparently not in the case of steel. True, the dangerous experiment with renewable energy, has increased our energy costs.

You see a very narrow picture there.  The UK steel industry isn't only struggling because China has taken its home steel market, it is because China has taken all of its export market.  Even a Britain returning to splendid isolation (failed system) couldn't levy tariffs in other countries. Unless you are proposing we build up the Navy and go take over the world again it can't be done?  Or equally fanciful become an isolated nation like North Korea and nationalise the steel industry and make rebar just for our own consumption.  That will never work either as we won't be building much.

[P J]

You see there is nothing this Government won't do, no matter how immoral, in order to suck up to China.  We are at their beck and call and all of a sudden human rights abuse is acceptable if we can have a bit of their money.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-accused-of-doing-chinas-bidding-after-police-raid-home-of-tiananmen-square-survivor-over-peaceful-a6704911.html

[asperity]

You are/were the biggest tub thumping Tory on the forum but now seem fickle

You really do have a very narrow view of the world don't you PJ. And you think everyone else does too. I don't tub thump for anybody, not being a member of any political party, and I do try to keep an open mind.

[P J]

 and I do try to keep an open mind.

           

[observer]

So as I said; some on here would simply bend over at Dover and get rogered by events !  Steel is used in a huge range of products; those products made in the UK (though not many these days) can use British Steel, as in fact the rail modernisation prog is.  So yes, re-nationalise and subsidise, just like the Chinese; who apparently have, as a non-EU member, full access to the EU market.

[Coffee]

Errm nope Coff; an independent UK could employ tariffs, as indeed the EU already do, but apparently not in the case of steel. True, the dangerous experiment with renewable energy, has increased our energy costs.

 

Err, China would retaliate with sanctions.

 

You see a very narrow picture there.  The UK steel industry isn't only struggling because China has taken its home steel market, it is because China has taken all of its export market.  Even a Britain returning to splendid isolation (failed system) couldn't levy tariffs in other countries. Unless you are proposing we build up the Navy and go take over the world again it can't be done?  Or equally fanciful become an isolated nation like North Korea and nationalise the steel industry and make rebar just for our own consumption.  That will never work either as we won't be building much.

 

It is a problem faced by all countries but other countries are helping its industry through. Once these heavy industries are gone they are goneand how much does it cost to retrain and reemploy everyone who looses their jobs?

 

Is the EU a failed system, apart from Germany?

[P J]

What has the steel crisis to do with Dover ? Apart from nothing?

[P J]

Which other countries are providing financial propping up for their steel industries Coffee?  I know India is struggling badly because of the crisis.  We , as a country, can't afford to keep open heavy loss making steel foundries and all the other associated ancillary industries too, indefinitely merely to preserve the skill sets.  This has been done to death on the other steel thread.  

 

 

I absolutely agree that we should encourage our students into vocational subjects and narrow our skills gap but that, as you like to point out, won't happen overnight.  This country has a far higher ratio of pensioners to workers than at any time in its history.  These pensioners need money in the way of pensions.  There aren't enough indigenous workers to pay in enough tax to pay these pensions, ergo?  Back to the OP subject, retaining skills is impossible for a private company to do if Global market forces, in the case of this particular thread, steel rebar prices, fall sharply due to whatever the circumstances but on this occasion Chinese overproduction and supply of said rebar.  They cannot sustain losses for years and years in order to keep alive the skill sets the country may need in the event of conflict etc. .  It's pretty basic economics, you lose money you go bust eventually.  Now the state cannot afford either to keep these failing businesses and trades going for a prolonged period of time as a way of ring fencing and protecting our skills either like a heritage skills bank.  Even with a bank of skills we would still need foundries that were up and running as it takes years to de mothball and go back to full production.  The steel rebar production is only one of a whole gamut of skills and manufacturing processes we would require to become totally self sufficient.  We  would also need to become self sufficient in the production of the raw materials required for producing the stuff.  Iron ore, coal, coking plants, tin, copper etc.  All this extra production is going to require a lot more power, we are already reliant upon energy import to keep the lights on and the home fires burning,  this would make the energy gap even wider.  We would also need to be producing a third more food than we presently can.  To do this we would have to convert vast spaces to agriculture and even then its doubtful we could achieve and sustain the required amount of food production.  It would be Shangri-La if we could be competitive, highly trained, highly skilled and self sufficient in the production of everything we require but as I am sure you are aware Shangri-La is a work of fiction much like the suggestions in this thread claiming we can produce everything we need as a country to be self sufficient to cover us against some future non specified doomsday scenario.  In the 1930's I am sure we had a much larger and more highly trained manufacturing industry than we do now yet we still needed to convoy in vital supplies and raw materials and manufactured goods from all over the world.  My suggestion is this, import what we need, export what we can, and manufacture and grow what we viably can, make up the shortfall in workforce, skills gaps and expertise from around the world and keep our pensioners fed and warm.  If we identify and make attractive the areas we need skills in then perhaps at some stage we may need less imports and imported skill but then needs and the requirements of skill sets are constantly changing and sometimes a country needs to react quickly, as do private companies. We live in a Global market, who built and owns most of our car manufacturing plants, power stations, electronic factories, foundries, etc.?  I will give you a clue it's not usually Britain. Wasting all the countries money and resources trying to keep alive private industries which have failed and which , ironically, weren't even a British company, would be wrong and dare I say it stupid as we don't have bajillions of pounds lying around gathering dust. I know this is not a solution but I don't like to pretend I have the solution for anything and everything unlike other , more deluded, posters . 

 

Who knows, perhaps a plan to save the Redcar plant at sometime in the future can be arrived at andI hope that the plant is properly mothballed by the receivers.  I truly hope it can as I hate to see industries go bust and the cost to the local communities will be huge.  The problem isn't producing the steel, it is trying to sell it at a profit and as we see all the time, market forces change all the time.

[P J]

  Steel is used in a huge range of products; those products made in the UK (though not many these days) can use British Steel, as in fact the rail modernisation prog is.  So yes, re-nationalise and subsidise, just like the Chinese; who apparently have, as a non-EU member, full access to the EU market.

So we renationalise the steel industry and subsidise it to the tune of billions of pounds indefinitely.  How do we afford that.  We would also need to re nationalise and subsidise the power companies, then the water companies, re open and nationalise a coal mine or 10.  Good luck getting the Tories on board with any of that lol.

[Lt Kije]

China is dumping steel worldwide, even with the tariffs it is paying to gain access to the EU, there steel is still a lot cheaper, hence the name dumping, it's not just a European problem, Steel makers in the USA are suffering as well as Korea. China is either protecting its own workers from the steel glut, or is out to destroy steel making in the rest of the world. Hope that answers your question Asp on the EU.

[observer]

At least you recognise what's going on Kije; some on here are apparently open to becoming dependent on the Chinese and others. Agree with your re-nationalisation programme PJ, pity the Tories (and wet Labour) and the EU don't !   As I've said, it's all about national self interest at the end of the day, I'm sure no sane person believes that the £billions being promised in investment by the Chinese, are merely some altruistic gesture; they'll want a return on their money, and we'll be paying for it. 

[asperity]

Thanks for the attempt at an explanation Lt Kije, however that seems to suggest that the powers that be in the EU are content for the European steel producers to go to the wall as otherwise they would make the inport tarriffs too unrealisticfor the Chinese to carry on dumping.

[Lt Kije]

Asp

 

Korea, USA are in trouble as well, don't look at this as a European problem, it's a worldwide problem, they are dumping worldwide. Whether it a diliberate act to kill of competitors or just keeping their own population in jobs, is up for debate. But have no doubt it is dumping, they are not making money. They are selling steel at a loss.

[asperity]

But Korea and the USA don't have to pay the EU £Billions every year do they? From a purely partisan point of view I would expect us to get better protection from the club than they are providing!

[P J]

At least you recognise what's going on Kije; some on here are apparently open to becoming dependent on the Chinese and others. Agree with your re-nationalisation programme PJ, pity the Tories (and wet Labour) and the EU don't !   As I've said, it's all about national self interest at the end of the day, I'm sure no sane person believes that the £billions being promised in investment by the Chinese, are merely some altruistic gesture; they'll want a return on their money, and we'll be paying for it. 

Utter fantasy as usual.  This country couldn't afford to buy back its once nationalised industries let alone run them at a huge loss so as to mothball skill sets , like an army of workers frozen in time waiting for the day they are needed.  I would love it if we could find a way to keep the steel mills going, I hate to see good honest people losing their livelihoods through no fault of their own.  That said, they aren't even British owned steel companies any more so no chance whatsoever that we will fund a private foreign company to the tune of billions to not produce anything, that would be ridiculous.  As for your silly little jibe here is a little heads up for you, nobody on this forum has any influence or power to determine British industrial policy,  British relations with China nor global steel prices, not even the almighty you.  FYI  we are COMPLETELY dependent on others already, the Empire has gone, we are a former power, just seems people don't realise this.   What sane person would expect a foreign country to invest billions in another countries infrastructure without the chance of a profit down the line?  Have you any comprehension whatsoever how a business deal works?  It appears not.  You stick to your fantasy regarding the steel mills and I will sadly accept what is a reality.  It doesn't mean I like it.

[Lt Kije]

We are better protected Asp, as Chinese steel sold in Europe is more expensive than the USA and Korea, as China has to pay tariffs to sell into the EU, so our steel is better protected, but when a Country such as China with its massive steel industry decides to dump, The rest of the World suffers. It gives you an idea of the scale of the dumping going on. As to motives your guess is as good as mine

[Davy51]

Unfortunately ,we have one of the biggest nationalised industries in the world & it is called the benefit system, which grew out of the 70s/80s scenario of household names going to the wall & putting thousands out of work overnight. Governments of the day found it easier to devise new benefits to get people off the unemployment figures than admit they had dug a hole they couldn't get out of & that meaningful employment had gone forever. I think this China syndrome  is probably the last throw of this governments dice to try & create some jobs before they have to acknowledge what dire straits this country is in from the point of view of many of its citizens.Part time jobs propped up by benefits makes nobody prosperous in the long term.

[observer]

Who mentioned "buying back" nationalised industries? It's within the power of an Independent National Government to take them over WITHOUT compensation if needs be. So even you acknowledge that this current farce with China, isn't a benign excuse for them to help us out, but will be collecting from us in the future, at what level of interest? This whole idea of "trade", needs some examination; aside from Giant Pandas and possibly Soy Sauce; and ultra-cheap labour of course; what has China got that is essential to us. The whole point and origin of "trade" was the exchange of goods that each couldn't resource/produce themselves. what we're actually seeing here is smoke and mirrors, and an effort on the part of the Tories to make believe they can turn the industrial desert of the North, into some kind of northern powerhouse. An exercise in bovine scatology to all but the gullible.

[Lt Kije]

It's within our power now, stategic industries can be helped, I would say steel is, it is needed for defence, all it takes is political will to do so!

[asperity]

Obs, I think you will find that a lot of the things you use, or have used , in the last 20 years was manufactured, at least in part, in China. So you cannot at this late stage say we don't need them. The time to save the type of British industry that once ruled the world passed 30 to 40 years ago when the ball was passed to our competitors who enthusiastically caught and ran with it. Blame whoever you like, it makes no difference to reality.