Coffee Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 They have no idea how many have died trying to make the crossings, like you they are guessing true, could be less How many lives did your typo constitute? non, the typo has no effect on what happens in the med Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 non, the typo has no effect on what happens in the med Probably too difficult a question for you to grasp . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 true, could be less Nope, they are counting bodies, well the ones they find. More will not be found but even so, I am glad that a minimum of almost 3000 isn't too many for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Probably too difficult a question for you to grasp . Probably Nope, they are counting bodies, well the ones they find. More will not be found but even so, I am glad that a minimum of almost 3000 isn't too many for you. I read the figure was an estimate but whatever you say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Probably I read the figure was an estimate guess but whatever you say you know it makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 If parents that endanger their kids health, through smoking - are scum; it doesn't say much for those that endanger their kids lives, by taking them on a suicidal sea crossing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 you know it makes sense Not really, estimate and guess mean the same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 If parents that endanger their kids health, through smoking - are scum; it doesn't say much for those that endanger their kids lives, by taking them on a suicidal sea crossing. If you need to ask that question, no amount of answering is going to matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 And no amount of reasoning is going to sway you from your line of thinking is it PJ? You seem to be unable to even consider any viewpoint other than your own. You take the stance that all of the immigrants are "poor victims of terrible life threatening circumstance" despite there being much evidence to suggest this is not the case. Why do you do this? Are you a politician with an agenda? Are you running on the 'I'm a great humanitarian' ticket like the rest of the power crazy politicians? If you were truly humanitarian you would consider the negative knock on effects this mass immigration will have on others. As posters have already pointed out, many of these immigrants are NOT fleeing for their lives, they have been living in Turkey etc and are only coming to Europe for a better standard of living. That is FACT, and these people when interviewed confirm this. They say they want to leave Turkey so they can get better housing, jobs and education. You don't think that there's people in this country that want those things? There's people in Britain living in a lot worse conditions than those immigrants in Turkey. Have you never seen the homeless sleeping on the streets in Warrington, the people queuing at food banks, or read reports of people dying of hypothermia? Or is it that these people are not as important to your political agenda? The majority of these 'immigrants' are young healthy well educated males, do you not have any sympathy for the aged or vulnerable, the women and children and the much poorer people left behind in Syria whom they have deserted? You argue that owning a smart phone does not mean they are not deprived and desperate but what about the people in parts of the world where they don't even have a bowl of rice? If Europe takes these people in the money to support them will have to come from somewhere. It's already been suggested to use the overseas aid budget. Have you thought of how many people will actually starve to death or die through lack of basic vaccinations if their aid budget is diverted? Are you completely blind to these consequences or do you just not care? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I am touched that you all of a sudden give a toss about the homeless of Warrington and your new found concern for the people needing foreign aid is ever so touching. I will address the rest of your lengthy waffle when I have a little more concern for it's contents Ps. The last person I am going to listen to regarding humanitarianism is someone who advocates burning schoolgirls in a cage as retribution for being stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The best way of helping the genuine refugees is to sort out their country so they don't need to move anywhere & it isn't necessarily the terrorists who are at fault or the various "religious" factions in the region.Maybe the best place to start to bring peace would be by dealing with the wealthy arms dealers & other wealthy interested parties who are happy to sit back & watch Syria be torn apart for their greater good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Obviously no answer to that last point of comparison about - scum. What seems to be happening, is that there is a virtue race on with the luvvies. as to who can be most compassionate; and no amount of logic or legality is allowed to interfere with it. The vast majority of these opportunists are economic migrants, they are not just approaching via the Balkan Front, but through Italy, Spain and now Finland. All "economic migrants" should be flown home asap; which would greatly reduce the problem for a start. Unfortunately the luvvies appear incapable of dealing in terms of consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Going to try to put you right point by point. And no amount of reasoning is going to sway you from your line of thinking is it PJ? You seem to be unable to even consider any viewpoint other than your own. I see your viewpoint with equal contempt that you see mine from. You take the stance that all of the immigrants are "poor victims of terrible life threatening circumstance" despite there being much evidence to suggest this is not the case. No I don't, If you bothered reading before spouting off you would have seen my comment regarding human nature and opportunism but please, tell me again, how many people has this war and the wars in Iraq,Afghanistan etc. displaced? Why do you do this? Are you a politician with an agenda? Are you running on the 'I'm a great humanitarian' ticket like the rest of the power crazy politicians? Why do I speak my mind? Perhaps a lot of it is that when I do it upsets all the people it is supposed to upset. Apparently places like this exist for just such a purpose. I am not a politician, are you? If you were truly humanitarian you would consider the negative knock on effects this mass immigration will have on others. As I already said, a the last person I will listen to on here regarding humanitarianism is someone who finds the notion of burning alive schoolgirls acceptable. As posters have already pointed out, many of these immigrants are NOT fleeing for their lives, they have been living in Turkey etc and are only coming to Europe for a better standard of living. That is FACT, and these people when interviewed confirm this. They say they want to leave Turkey so they can get better housing, jobs and education. Human nature and are you disputing that nobody amongst these poor souls is escaping a war? Do you think war is the only allowable circumstance when it comes to asking for asylum? How do Turkey treat Kurds for instance? You don't think that there's people in this country that want those things? I regularly speak of the injustice in this country, you, however seem to do this far less. There's people in Britain living in a lot worse conditions than those immigrants in Turkey. Have you never seen the homeless sleeping on the streets in Warrington, the people queuing at food banks, or read reports of people dying of hypothermia? All of these things are wrong which is why I speak out against it and also help out when I can. Have you seen the pictures of the overcrowded, overstretched camps in Turkey, Lebanon etc? Or is it that these people are not as important to your political agenda? Already told you I am no politician and have only personal opinions not agendas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The majority of these 'immigrants' are young healthy well educated males, do you not have any sympathy for the aged or vulnerable, the women and children and the much poorer people left behind in Syria whom they have deserted? I have every sympathy for the old, and the vulnerable many of whom couldn't make the journey and a lot of them are enduring hellish conditions in the refugee camps. You argue that owning a smart phone does not mean they are not deprived and desperate Owning a smart phone and being educated is no protection from a barrel bomb or a mortar shell. but what about the people in parts of the world where they don't even have a bowl of rice? If Europe takes these people in the money to support them will have to come from somewhere. It's already been suggested to use the overseas aid budget. Have you thought of how many people will actually starve to death or die through lack of basic vaccinations if their aid budget is diverted? At last we find common ground, we both seem to agree that we should be doing more, as a wealthy country along with other wealthy countries to help the poorest and most needy. Perhaps we could start by taking back the Trillion or so that CityBank were bailed out with and use that to help??? In conclusion, if someone like you completely disagrees with my point of view I am clearly doing something right. Hope this helped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Obviously no answer to that last point of comparison about - scum. Oh I do but you clearly lack the humanity to understand it even if I spoon fed you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Not really, estimate and guess mean the same thing! not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 No truer saying "the road to ruin is paved with good intentions" - the bleeding hearts that defy logic, defy international law; will indeed prove the ruination of us all. The law is quite clear, as determined by the Dublin Convention, refugees should seek asylum in the NEXT NEAREST SAFE Country; which in the case of Syria means Turkey, Lebanon or Jordan. It is then for the international community to properly fund the refugee camps and process asylum claims. As for the majority, who are clearly economic migrants, as with any emigration, a visa application should be made to the country that one wishes to enter, if approved one can enter perfectly legally. This is currently the case with the thousands of foreign students attending our Universities each year, and whilst some overstay their visas, it's the legal way to deal with the matter. As for the consequences: the Gov is promising to build a million houses (not necessarily Council houses btw); in response to current indigenous housing demand; so we can add the steady stream of migrants to that demand; unless all the bleeding hearts provide their spare bedrooms ! There is, and will be an increasing demand for Education and Health facilities; which cash strapped Councils can't even properly fund at the moment. Then further down the line, the inevitable consequence of this will be social unrest. The management of this shambles is quite simple, it just requires political will and organisation, to allow entry Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain to process these people asap, and return all economic migrants - sorted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Firstly PJ, my concern for the homeless and starving is not 'new found'. You've pulled that one out of your imagination! And I did not advocate burning schoolgirls merely for being stupid. What I have said is that they are far from stupid and are not the naïve little schoolgirls you make them out to be but A grade students who know exactly what they are doing and know full well what atrocities the scum they are running off to support have committed. I also said I didn't see why they should be let back into the country - they have made their choice and can suffer the consequences. I also said if they had taken an active part in committing atrocities then they should suffer the consequences of that too, so if they have taken part in beheading innocent people then I really wouldn't bat an eyelid if they were sentenced to death by burning in a cage. With regards to the immigrants, you say "owning a smart phone and being educated is no protection from a barrel bomb or a mortar shell" You are such a drama queen! You know the immigrants I was talking about were the 'financial immigrants' already living in Turkey safely away from any war zones. I think we should help those in genuine need but I think there's a lot of people a lot worse off than those who are just whinging for a better lifestyle. As I said before the majority of these whingers are young healthy (and as has been sometimes seen very aggressive) males - what kind of men are these who have deserted the old, the women and children and the vulnerable? Who do they expect to fight for their country's freedom - OUR SONS? - whilst they are provided with all the material comforts of their dreams from our country's resources? Also, it may have escaped your very selective attention but many of those so called refugees from Syria are not even from Syria! No-one (not even Obs!) is suggesting that there are not some genuinely desperate and vulnerable people who need help - which should of course be given. But there are probably more who are merely 'financial chancers' and it is disgraceful to take money from other really needy causes to fund their merely material ambitions. You seem to be too blinded by the light of your own perceived halo to be able to view the situation in any logical manner. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sha Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Davy51. I agree with your post - the way to stop the war is to stop the profiteers supplying arms. Obs I think you have logical ideas for dealing with the immigrant crisis - unfortunately common sense is lacking in self serving politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Firstly PJ, my concern for the homeless and starving is not 'new found'. You've pulled that one out of your imagination! And I did not advocate burning schoolgirls merely for being stupid. What I have said is that they are far from stupid and are not the naïve little schoolgirls you make them out to be but A grade students who know exactly what they are doing and know full well what atrocities the scum they are running off to support have committed. I also said I didn't see why they should be let back into the country - they have made their choice and can suffer the consequences. I also said if they had taken an active part in committing atrocities then they should suffer the consequences of that too, so if they have taken part in beheading innocent people then I really wouldn't bat an eyelid if they were sentenced to death by burning in a cage. With regards to the immigrants, you say "owning a smart phone and being educated is no protection from a barrel bomb or a mortar shell" You are such a drama queen! You know the immigrants I was talking about were the 'financial immigrants' already living in Turkey safely away from any war zones. I think we should help those in genuine need but I think there's a lot of people a lot worse off than those who are just whinging for a better lifestyle. As I said before the majority of these whingers are young healthy (and as has been sometimes seen very aggressive) males - what kind of men are these who have deserted the old, the women and children and the vulnerable? Who do they expect to fight for their country's freedom - OUR SONS? - whilst they are provided with all the material comforts of their dreams from our country's resources? Also, it may have escaped your very selective attention but many of those so called refugees from Syria are not even from Syria! No-one (not even Obs!) is suggesting that there are not some genuinely desperate and vulnerable people who need help - which should of course be given. But there are probably more who are merely 'financial chancers' and it is disgraceful to take money from other really needy causes to fund their merely material ambitions. You seem to be too blinded by the light of your own perceived halo to be able to view the situation in any logical manner. As I have told you I am delighted not to share your opinions as I wouldn't ever want to share ideals with anyone who attempts to justify the burning alive of young girls no matter what they did to offend me, I wouldn't even want to burn alive you, I would rather get you frothing to the point that you feel the need to compose long, boring and meaningless rants on a forum. I look forward with pleasure to your tedious retort.???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Clearly running out of argument now, to support this illegal shambles. No defence of the "scum" that imperil their kids lives crossing the seas to "a better life"; assuming a clue about sorting out the first million; not a clue and no answers for the next million and the million after that. The idea that these people will "go home" when the war is over, is pie in the sky - some were on TV learning some English and being shown all the relevant forms to fill in (surprised the local councils don't print them in their native language!); one can imagine the delight when they learn, they'll be given a house, money from the Home Office, and then phone home to tell the rest of their relatives just how easy it is to get money for nothing (benefits); cos they won't be officially allowed to work whilst claiming asylum, unless they get work on the black market. Then we'll get them moving into segregated communities, and relying on benefits cos they are last on the list for jobs - as is the case in luvvie Sweden. Amazing when you think just how easy and simple it could have been, for EU Countries to employ border agencies, to process these people. A big map of the world on the wall, with all the "safe" countries coloured green; ask where they're from, then arrange a flight to the nearest safe country to their original home - sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Scum, as I referred to them in the smoking in cars with children topic, are knowingly and deliberately causing harm to their own children by forcing them to inhale harmful toxins whist enclosed in a confined space. The charmers you brought up, as support for your nonsense claim to there being no private spaces anymore, were chain smoking around their son who had just been diagnosed with a breathing condition and prescribed an inhaler. The social worker said in all her life this was the worst house for smoke she had ever seen. The "parents" were unable or unwilling to change their behaviour despite being told the consequences by many officials. The child was rightly removed from their "care" Here is the thing, there is nothing whatsoever that can be classed as beneficial to a child's life and quality of life by forcing them to be poisoned in a car by smoke toxins. Therein lies the difference yet I imagine I just wasted 2 minutes of my life as you will lack sufficient decency to understand this is wrong, just like the scumbag parents in the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Errm, I'm certainly not defending the smokers in these cases; who endanger their children's health; but neither would I defend parents who get their kids killed by dangerous journeys across seas. So a no brainer. Still waiting for your grand plan for the first million migrants; then more interestingly, the next million and the next ad inf. After all. we've got pots of money, loads of teachers, loads of Doctors, loads of council houses, etc etc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 You wouldn't defend a foreigner no matter what they did. Speaking of cars and toxins, VW stand to be fined 15 billion quid for fiddling emissions, you could feed, clothe, house , and medicate a lot of refugees with that amount of money. Maybe then they wouldn't be forced to leave the refugee camps to seek an existence. You see , the money is there just not the will by the super rich to use it fairly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Errm, hang on; no one is "forced" to leave refugee camps; they leave because they are attracted by avarice; and to a point one can't blame them. The villains of the peace are the EU and it's Governments who cannot protect EU borders in line with international law; neither can they contribute sufficient aid to ensure folk stay in the camps. I'm sure the money is there, but we'll never see a Gov prepared to gather it in. Meanwhile, the only thing they seem capable of gathering in, are refugees; or rather economic migrants. Still waiting however for this grand plan for dealing with the exodus ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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