observer Posted June 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 One man's facts are another's propaganda - of more importance are perceptions, as they colour public opinion. However, one FACT IS, that WE are a net importer of immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 You could try to back them up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Folk only need to watch TV news and see it with their own eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Evidence is the key Obs, not your distortions, I watch the tv with eyes wide open and not with blinkers, try taking them off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Can't say I have any idea where this debate (sorry Obs / LT K ping pong conversation) is upto now but Lt K do you really, hand on heart, think that there is no problem with immigration levels and indeed illegal immigrants in this county ? Â Thought I'd just ask rather than reading all 56 pages again :oops : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Blinkers allow one to focus on the way ahead, not being distracted by peripheral issues - much better than your blindfold Kije! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 The trouble is Obs is I see right through your lies and propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 H E L L O............ am I being ignored Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Dizzy asked a question. It would be polite and well-mannered to give her an answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 To stop immigration you can not simply shut the door, People are that desperate they are climbing into undercarriages of planes, they will always find away. Panorama on BBc1 a few weeks ago showed how many people die moving across Africa to try to get into Europe. You have to stop them wanting or needing to come. It is a World problem and needs to be addressed at that level. How do you stop people leaving places where they have no hope of feeding their families properly no access to medicine or a proper eduction, or just escaping war. If you lived in such a place would you not try to get out. Â It is simple in the end we have to share out the Worlds resources more evenly or people without them will move to places where they have or think they will have better accesses to them, The question is are we ready to share. People like Obs are not. Â Their any many natural resources in Africa, Copper, Diamonds platinum ect more than enough to make the continent rich. The trouble is the West pays very little for it, and the little we pay gets wasted in corruption. We live in a capitalist world and a capitalist world relies on exploiting people,. Can we stop the exploited from trying to move. Â People will always try to move to where they think things will be better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Well put like that Lt K ... you are actually starting to make some sense although in reality such a 'sharing and worldly' way will never happen.  Nice dream though eh  And faced with the same situations, hardships and turmoils as some of these people face then... "If I/my family lived in such a place would we try to get out?"..... YES Lt K I/we more than likely would.  Not all are like that though and not all come here for the same reasons. Some simply come because we are a soft touch and they leave their families behind so anything they receive in benefits or wages while they are over here gets sent back to 'family' in country 'x'. If life was that bad then surely 'family' would come too.  Anyway thanks for answering as it has make me think slightly differently in certain cases but not others .... it maybe a short change of heart though, who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Dizzy  If you were a painter and decorator in Poland and got £50.00 a week, but you new that if you could get to the UK you could get £300 per week for doing the same job what would you do. Your standard of living would greatly improve by moving.  It is a myth put out by Obs and the BNP that people come solely to exploit are benefit system, I would be lying if I said there are no people that come here solely for the benefit system but they are a minuscule number, and having a very low paid job over here or being on benefit they are still better off. You can not blame people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. To stop immigration you have to stop the causes of immigration. What Obs should be doing is having a go at the government for not doing enough about the causes of immigration but for some reason he chooses not to. He chooses ignorance over enlightenment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm finding myself agreeing with you again.. this is rather scarey now.  Some years back I was told about a builder friend of someone. Sick to death of all the lazy 'I have rights and cant be arsed to work' worker's he had had in the past he employed some Polish builders/joiners/decorators. I presume they were 'legal' infact they must have been as he paid them legitimately  Anyway he housed them all free of charge in a house he owned... he had a mini bus that picked them up each day and dropped them off back home. He also paid them a decent wage but presumably less than it would cost him to pay the 'lazy buggers'  His new workers worked their socks off, they respected him, he respected them, they never once complained, he never once complained, they did a great job. They were happy and were making a lot of money AND being looked after, he was happy and was making money despite looking after them, everyone was very very happy, their customers were happy as they were getting a better deal and better quality of work too.  Makes you think eh? Maybe if the UK didn't have so many lazy buggers working who are shown up by the poles or other immigrants there may not actually be any jobs for the immigrants to TAKE from us on a gold plate so they would stop coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Night Obs... tomorrow maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Now who's spouting propaganda? If you trawl back through these and other pages, you'll discover that I've advocated improving the economies of third world countries; not by doling out cash to tinpot dictators to spend on arms or to stow away in a Swiss bank, but to provide the means and motivation to develop a self sustainable economy; and at the same time encouraging 21st century attitudes to birth control in areas where populations are outstripping food supplies. But even with all this; there are enviromental threats (EG flooding in E/Pakistan delta) which will eventually displace millions (13million alone in Calcutta) who will naturally wish to move to places of safety in order to survive. The life boat analogy is very apt; our life boat is full, so we cannot take on those swimming towards it otherwise it will eventually capsize. btw the latest stats show an annual influx of 250,000 immigrants into the UK, they of course being the known legal immigrants; those arriving under lorries etc the Government havn't got a clue about. Meanwhile, with around 2million unemployed in the UK, I think resentment at Poles taking jobs over here is fairly understandable. The ultimate "causation" is overpopulation, and despite natures occasional attempts to regulate it, humanity is outstripping the capacity of the planet to support our numbers. So in the absence of some common global strategy, we have to look to our own interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Night Lt K... don't get cocky  EDIT....bugger you beat me Obs now my post doesn't make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Looking after are own intrest Obs as you well know will not stop them, you could build an Iron curtain around the UK and it would not stop them. You want to have the cake and eat it as well. If you advocate getting to the cause of immigration you would have no problem from me, but if you persist in your politics of ignorance then I will continue to oppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Correction Kije, "will not stop them TRYING" - and when they are apprehended, they should simply be deported right back to their home country - simples. But alas too simple for liberal luvvies in the legal and political class, who've ponced around with the human rights legislation to the point where we can't even deport the likes of Abu Hamza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Even scarier than last night I now find my self agreeing with both Lt K AND Obs.... Â Anyway.... in the news today... Â http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/uk/2011/07/01/firms_urged_to_hire_british_jobless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Here we go again with your scare mongering, Abu Hamza, he is one man but you insist on using him as an example. He and all the people like him will not even add up to 0.00001% of immigrants but you insist on bringing him out as an example. You want to stop immigration you know what to do, may I suggest you work on that instead of trying to scare people and label all immigrants with the Abu Hamza label. And what are you sending the immigrants back to. How much money do you want to spend on turning back immigrants, As much as it takes? Well how much is that do you want more tax rises. Because without a cure they will not stop coming. We will just spend more and more money trying to stop them and they will continue to find new ways to get in. You want to stop them coming cost it out properly and see if the people will go for it then. Its the typical right wing way to scare people with Abu Hamza and throw stones. Can I suggest you stop the typical hard right slant you are coming out with. Think of a proper solution and then advocate it. As I have said many times it is a World problem and in my opinion the only way to stop it would be a more equal sharing of wealth. Until the rich nations grasp that nettle their will never be a solution. We will just spend more and more of our wealth trying to stop it. which to me does not make sense. As we are spending the very thing you seek to protect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Abu Hamza is an extreme case and I used it to show the way in which HR law has neutralised any possiblity of deporting these characters back - but a third of our prisoners are foreigners, and arn't being deported; then we have the example of the guy who fathered a family and now can't be parted from them - surreal. As for the cost of securing OUR borders, we could save £billions on foreign wars for a start, which cause some of these migrations in the first place, the savings could be used to combat illegal immigration - sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Kije Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 The figure I got when I looked it up was 14%. Their you go again massaging the figures.  What wars would you pull us out of to get your costings  Lets examine your plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 With both your extensive amounts of knowledge / insights on the subject maybe you should both work together as a team and find the one solution to the problem that the government and other countries seem to have missed  Wonder what you could call it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Doh! What wars do you think Kije? Theirs only two on the go at the minute. Diz, I'm advocating "a solution"; the problem is our Government is so tied up with EU and ECHR red tape, and so infiltrated by the lib luvvies, that they can't go for the common sense solution - they thrive on complicating situations - it keeps them in a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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