Traveller's Rest stones

[Dizzy]

Blummin' marvelous Joe      I've actually got that photo somewhere and completely forgot all about it until you posted yours. 

I know where that photo was taken.  It's the crossroads of Knutsford Road & Chester Road (where the Springbrook Pub is now) and the original Dog and Dart Pub shown on the map below used to be there before it was knocked down and rebuilt further down Knutsford Road.

The Travellers Rest Stone is still there too

Here's the old map which shows it and also the guide post in the photo...



and the google street view link that shows the Travellers Rest stone still there at the side of the road.  I thought at first it looked very worn but looking again it appears to have sunk into the ground at one end.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Walton,+Warrington+WA4+6ED/@53.37678,-2.53944,3a,75y,140.02h,64.73t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s3Xxx-t6PHKQwHA932GVuIg!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x487b020dd6c0f4a7:0xbc01195a6b71d958!6m1!1e1

[Tracey Bennett]

Oh! What a tiny pitiful nub it has become!

[Davy51]

You see, i can't  understand why these stones would be stepped at the ends if not to cater for horse riders too ,especially ladies in long clothes . The very fact that they are inscribed also smacks either of "in remembrance of a person" or a statement that "so & so is a great benefactor" ,a self proclaiming advert if you like of whoever laid or at least sponsored the stones.

[Davy51]

I get your gist now Dizzy ,i managed to get the Kendrick article enlarged so i could see the print properly !

[Dizzy]

:lol: Davy I was wondering why you didn't still believe what Kendrick himself has written about his scheme.

I can read them all crystal clear as they are big on my PC so I presumed everyone else would be able to easily read them too. 
Bugger as I've just re-typed Kendricks letter to the Editor of the Warrington Guardian out too and am about to upload that.

If you can't read it let me know.....

[Dizzy]

CLICK TO ENLARGE

 

 

[Joe]

I've checked with a friend of mine regarding the Travellers Rest at Thelwall, he's confirmed my recollection of it's position and thinks it may be still there, buried in the undergrowth

[Dizzy]

Thanks I've just looked at your directions again and have just google street walked it.  Not sure about actually going down now though if I'll have to rummage through the undergrowth to find it.   There's no blummin' pavement on that side and being on the main road I might finish up in A&E or worse.   

[Davy51]

Yes read that. You know ,it isn't any mean feat to provide these especially when you consider the weight & size & they would have to brought by cart on roads probably muddied & rutted from the bad weather. They would then need to be manhandled off the cart & into position.

[Sha]

Diz, you mentioned that most of these Traveller's Rests are not listed. Perhaps this is because no-one has applied to have them listed?

I don't suppose that either the borough council or the owners of the land on which they stand would be that interested in having them listed as they would have to apply to English Heritage if ever they wanted them moving. It might be worth contacting English Heritage and asking for info - they may have their own list of where these stones are, if they haven't they might be interested in what you've found out.

 

It's certainly an interesting topic though! I think ramblers groups might be interested. Have you heard of the Geo Cache hunts? Little plastic boxesare hidden along ramblers routes with internet links as to their general whereabouts. The idea is to find them, (which is quite hard) and add your name to the little booklet inside. Some people also leave a little personal token in the box. I suppose it adds a little interest to the walks.

I think finding Traveller's Rests and their individual inscriptions might appeal to some Walkers. Maybe they would find some that you are trying to locate. Might be worth setting up a facebook page? Could end up the summer craze of 2015 and result in a really useful historical record collection!

[algy]

Dizz, by the time you find the Thelwall Travellers Rest stone, you will need to sit down on it .

[Tracey Bennett]

Geocaches by the stones is a fantastic idea - that'd make a great series (not sure I'd fancy being the cache owner though!)

[Dizzy]

Good thinking Sha and yes worth contacting English Heritage to see what they know and I will try and do that next week.  The fact that they simply have the Lymm one listed as a 'mounting block' rather than a 'Travellers Rest' suggests to me that they many not know what they were originally for and about Kendricks plan.  But then surely EH would know that wouldn't they ??

As for Geocaching (Sha and Tracey) well I'd heard the word and knew it involved walking about but other than that didn't know anything about it.  I just googled though and it sounds great fun and rather tiring.  Seems there are loads of hidden caches round Warrington too.  Sounds a fun idea to have some near the Travellers Rests and double bonus the weary travellers on foot can once again rest their tired and aching bodies on them.... Kendrick would be so pleased that his legacy lives on      

[Sha]

I was thinking along the lines of the walkers finding the stones then entering the location and any inscription online and hopefully a photo.

When a good collection has been made, this information could then be given to English Heritage. Who, by the way, often are unaware of aspects of local history. I think they just add buildings / monuments to their lists when notification has been sent to them and an application made.(I don't think they ever go out looking for things to list).

Anyone can make an application for listing but  I suppose it's usually left to local councils - who don't really seem that interested in protecting our heritage - not in Warrington anyway, which is evident by the amount that we have already lost. 

 

As a recording body English Heritage seem OK  but when it comes to Heritage protection they seem like a toothless organisation and don't really seem effective in saving much. When you look at all the so called protected listed buildings that are crumbling before our very eyes it makes you wonder why EH aren't more proactive in forcing local councils to step in and force the owners to stop the rot.

[ClassicLandyLady]

I've found this thread and I know I'm 7 years late in joining, but just wanted to say "thank you".  My father is 97, and last week he was talking about the Travellers Rest stone on Bold Bridge (A57 near the Griffin Inn)... he thought no-one would be interested and they'd all be forgotten!  I shall show him all this information.  He remembers the stone and its inscription clearly, but it will be all but invisible now as the bridge was altered to take out the hump - apparently it was quite viscious.  Rather than raise the rest stone, the road / banking level was built up around it so that only the flat top of the sandstone block was visible, as an odd square pad of stone.  We've all moved away from the area, or I'd go searching for it.  Once again, thanks for all this, it's lovely history and I know Dad will be interested to read it. 😊 

[Crispin Edwards]

Hi, just to note that in 2022/23 Historic England has been re-assessing the listed ones, to make their origin and purpose clear instead of having them listed as mounting blocks. We've also been considering two others for possible listing; one at Stag Inn traffic island (Walton) and one at Red Bank (Winwick). We'll have decisions on all these six hopefully sometime later in 2023.

We also considered three others that we are aware of through them being on Cheshire's list of buildings of local interest. We decided not to take these forward for assessment; one is DCH12771, opposite the Springbrook pub at junction of A56 and A50, Grappenhall. This is the one which is in a historic photo above, being used. Unfortunately it's now half buried and appears to have lost one end, and doesn't seem to have any inscription. Another is DCH12957, outside Bethesda chapel at the corner of lumb brook rd and Grappenhall rd, stockton heath. This is the one which @Dizzyposted a photo of on May17 2015. It's been moved around the corner onto the A56 now, and is almost completely buried. The top of the central block might also have become detached from the rest of it.  The last is DCH12928, outside Holly Bank Farmhouse, Warburton Bridge Road, Rixton. This appears to have been removed some years ago when the farmhouse replaced its hedge with a brick wall (it might possibly be in the associated caravan park somewhere but being removed from its roadside position would harm its interest).

We also know that there are a couple of others that have been moved, one to Victoria Park St Helens (this is the one is that @luasredline remembers having the inscription "Rest to the body is sweet, rest to the soul is sweeter."), one to Thatto Heath Park and one to Walton Hall (from Walton Lea). The ones in Thatto Heath Park and Walton Hall are quite damaged, and all of them have been moved from their original location, so we're unlikely to consider them if any future applications are submitted. Finally I suspect that the one marked on historic maps at the junction of Stockport Road and Lymm Road (Thelwall) might still be there but there's a weird anomaly on Streetview and I haven't been able to visit that site. If it's still there and has an inscription it might be eligible for listing.

@Sha English Heritage (the administrative bit is now Historic England) isn't tasked with making local authorities do their job or use their powers regarding heritage. If councils are acting improperly they are overseen by the local government ombudsman. We advise on what should be designated through listing, scheduling or registration of landscapes, and we advise planning departments on certain planning/listed building applications. Councils are ultimately responsible to their local constituents, so do raise any matters with your or the local councillor, and/or with the planning enforcement team.

Regards

Crispin Edwards, Listing Adviser

[Bill]

I don't know if video links to Facebook work here, I can see it but maybe others can't so someone let me know if it works.

Anyway the link is to one of the many videos of the Warrington Area made by John Morris (aka DJJohnny) and covers the travelers rest stones.

https://www.facebook.com/johndmorris58/videos/10213793287851985

John has done a whole load of similar interesting videos in and arround the town and they're well worth a watch, even if you think you know everything about the town and it's history. Check out his Youtube content.

 

Bill  

 

[Evil Sid]

worked fine for me even though  i was not signed into faceache.

 

[Gary]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:45 PM, Crispin Edwards said:

Hi, just to note that in 2022/23 Historic England has been re-assessing the listed ones, to make their origin and purpose clear instead of having them listed as mounting blocks. We've also been considering two others for possible listing; one at Stag Inn traffic island (Walton) and one at Red Bank (Winwick). We'll have decisions on all these six hopefully sometime later in 2023.

We also considered three others that we are aware of through them being on Cheshire's list of buildings of local interest. We decided not to take these forward for assessment; one is DCH12771, opposite the Springbrook pub at junction of A56 and A50, Grappenhall. This is the one which is in a historic photo above, being used. Unfortunately it's now half buried and appears to have lost one end, and doesn't seem to have any inscription. Another is DCH12957, outside Bethesda chapel at the corner of lumb brook rd and Grappenhall rd, stockton heath. This is the one which @Dizzyposted a photo of on May17 2015. It's been moved around the corner onto the A56 now, and is almost completely buried. The top of the central block might also have become detached from the rest of it.  The last is DCH12928, outside Holly Bank Farmhouse, Warburton Bridge Road, Rixton. This appears to have been removed some years ago when the farmhouse replaced its hedge with a brick wall (it might possibly be in the associated caravan park somewhere but being removed from its roadside position would harm its interest).

We also know that there are a couple of others that have been moved, one to Victoria Park St Helens (this is the one is that @luasredline remembers having the inscription "Rest to the body is sweet, rest to the soul is sweeter."), one to Thatto Heath Park and one to Walton Hall (from Walton Lea). The ones in Thatto Heath Park and Walton Hall are quite damaged, and all of them have been moved from their original location, so we're unlikely to consider them if any future applications are submitted. Finally I suspect that the one marked on historic maps at the junction of Stockport Road and Lymm Road (Thelwall) might still be there but there's a weird anomaly on Streetview and I haven't been able to visit that site. If it's still there and has an inscription it might be eligible for listing.

@Sha English Heritage (the administrative bit is now Historic England) isn't tasked with making local authorities do their job or use their powers regarding heritage. If councils are acting improperly they are overseen by the local government ombudsman. We advise on what should be designated through listing, scheduling or registration of landscapes, and we advise planning departments on certain planning/listed building applications. Councils are ultimately responsible to their local constituents, so do raise any matters with your or the local councillor, and/or with the planning enforcement team.

Regards

Crispin Edwards, Listing Adviser

Many thanks for the update

[Crispin Edwards]

My update above didn't mention that the stone in Victoria Park is on the Merseyside Historic Environment Record (ref MME21210). Also on that HER is one of the two stones that Kendrick himself is thought to have donated. The reference is MME20924, and it is now in the new war memorial enclosure opposite the north end of St James's Road in Rainhill. It originally stood at Kendrick's Cross (the junction of the A57 and Victoria Street) in Rainhill, just to the west. It was previously moved to outside Rainhill ex-services club, a bit further east. It's broken now, sadly.

[Crispin Edwards]

Hi @Gary, Please could you let me know if Historic England could have permission to use two images from the thread, if we do some publicity about the stones? One would be the photo posted by @Joe on p4 showing the one outside the Springbrook pub in Grappenhall being sat on. If he can tell us the source I would ask them direct. The other would be the historic drawing of one in use posted by @Dizzy on p4; I have searched the British Newspaper Archive in vain for the issue of the Warrington Guardian that this came from - I wonder if it might have been the Warrington Daily Guardian instead, which isn't in there for the relevant years. If she has a clean copy we could have I'd be very grateful! Anything you can do to help would be much appreciated, I'm trying to get info together for our media people before the end of this week if possible, sorry Thanks, Crispin

[Crispin Edwards]

For what might be a final update, there's a piece in today's Guardian about the stones, and it should be on tonight's BBC NW news, although the verdict in the Lucy Letby trial might push it off the agenda. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/18/stones-made-for-victorian-project-to-help-irish-workers-given-listed-status

[Gary]

On 8/2/2023 at 4:20 PM, Crispin Edwards said:

Hi @Gary, Please could you let me know if Historic England could have permission to use two images from the thread, if we do some publicity about the stones? One would be the photo posted by @Joe on p4 showing the one outside the Springbrook pub in Grappenhall being sat on. If he can tell us the source I would ask them direct. The other would be the historic drawing of one in use posted by @Dizzy on p4; I have searched the British Newspaper Archive in vain for the issue of the Warrington Guardian that this came from - I wonder if it might have been the Warrington Daily Guardian instead, which isn't in there for the relevant years. If she has a clean copy we could have I'd be very grateful! Anything you can do to help would be much appreciated, I'm trying to get info together for our media people before the end of this week if possible, sorry Thanks, Crispin

Sorry Crispin - only just seen this as been away and then busy catching up. I doubt there would be an issue using the images as long as they are credited and they have been put in public domain on here.