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Dizzy

WBC to close Sandy Lane Tip, Stockton Heath - 1 August !!

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Steve

 

Here's a comparison for you. Stockport is one of the UK's top ten performing councils for recycling according to letsrecycle.com. It has a population significantly smaller than Warrington, but has 3 CRCs, 60 recycling sites, weekly collections for food and garden waste, fortnightly collections for recyclables and has cut disposal costs by £12 million since it introduced its current methodology in 2007.

 

With this, I give up on this thread, as I can't be bothered countering nonsense.

 

Stockport Borough has a population nearly half as many again as Warrington.

Trafford - slightly bigger pop, 2 centres.

Bolton - 25% bigger pop than Warrington, 2 centres

Bury - bit smaller, 2 centres

Tameside, bit larger, 2 centres

Rochdale, same, 2 centres

Oldham, bit larger, 1 centre

Manchester, 2.5 times bigger, 3 centres

 

In short, you might not like it, but (as the scrutiny committee decided) the decision to close Sandy Lane is "proportionate to the desired outcome".

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Please don't go yet SteveP just because you don't agree with something that one person has said.   It's  all still rather interesing in my opinion and there are many other points that could be replied to instead.

Just out of interest have you ever used Stockton Heath tip and when was the last time you did and what does "proportionate to the desired outcome" mean.

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I don't admit that. I did say the scrutiny committee decision does not necessarily change the decision to close Sandy Lane.

 

Actually Steve, that's exactly what you said.

 

And you still haven't explained why and how the Labour Party decided this was an issue that the electorate didn't need to know about until the elections were out of the way.

 

Nor have you responded to the point that with the scrutiny committee essentially a mirror image of the council, what exactly it is scrutinising.  

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With this, I give up on this thread, as I can't be bothered countering nonsense.

 

Stockport Borough has a population nearly half as many again as Warrington.

Trafford - slightly bigger pop, 2 centres.

Bolton - 25% bigger pop than Warrington, 2 centres

Bury - bit smaller, 2 centres

Tameside, bit larger, 2 centres

Rochdale, same, 2 centres

Oldham, bit larger, 1 centre

Manchester, 2.5 times bigger, 3 centres

 

In short, you might not like it, but (as the scrutiny committee decided) the decision to close Sandy Lane is "proportionate to the desired outcome".

 

In short, they would say that, wouldn't they? And in any case nobody bothered asking local people nor did they look at alternatives, especially one that would involve maintaining facilities in South Warrington. 

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With this, I give up on this thread, as I can't be bothered countering nonsense.

 

Stockport Borough has a population nearly half as many again as Warrington.

Trafford - slightly bigger pop, 2 centres.

Bolton - 25% bigger pop than Warrington, 2 centres

Bury - bit smaller, 2 centres

Tameside, bit larger, 2 centres

Rochdale, same, 2 centres

Oldham, bit larger, 1 centre

Manchester, 2.5 times bigger, 3 centres

 

In short, you might not like it, but (as the scrutiny committee decided) the decision to close Sandy Lane is "proportionate to the desired outcome".

 

Have you even SEEN any of those tips though Steve?

 

All of the Viridor tips in Greater Manchester are bigger than anything Warrington has, at least 3 times the size of Woolston and probably 5 times the size of Stockton Heath. Only Gateworth comes anywhere close, but even that is significantly smaller than the Viridor tips.

 

If Warrington had tips of that size then we probably would only need two of them - one in the north and one in the south!

 

(Oh, and Greater Manchester residents also have the right to use any of the twenty tips in the county)

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How do Halton Borough Council manage as they will have been faced with government cuts and lack of funding etc too. 

They have a population much smaller than Warrington. (For comparison Halton's population was 157,710 and Warrington's was 205,150 according to the 2012 ONS statistics).  Obviously figures for both areas will have risen since then especially in Warrington with all the new housing development.  

Halton do only have 2 tips, one in Runcorn and one in Widnes, and are open 8am - 6pm (Oct to March) and 8am - 8pm (Apr to Sept).  Runcorn's population is said to be 63.5k and Widnes is 62k.  How big are their tips as I've never seen them.

AND HALTON BOROUGH COUNCIL STILL OPERATE WEEKLY BIN COLLECTIONS !!!
 

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Thanks for the link re the meeting Ann.  Can members of the public go to that one ?

PS In answer to your question about the couple of documents I uploaded.  Nothing 'Sherlock' about it, they were on the councils website;)  You just have to know how and where to look but credit where's credits due it actually wasn't that hard as thankfully WBC have FINALLY made changes to their search facility form and it actually works now after being pretty much useless for years and the addition of the new interactive map search is excellent.  So WELL DONE WBC and 10/10 for that one :)

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Maybe it should be 'Speedy Sherlock' as you find things quicker than the rest of us:)  Yes the general public can attend exec board meetings.  I hope, as there are two Call In agenda items that there will actually be some discussion.  I went to the one just after the 5500 petition to restore the 2 hours free parking had been presented, expecting a bit of a Q&A session, but no.  The chair read out each agenda item and asked the relevant exec member to say a few words, then asked for comments or questions, no-one said a word, then he asked for votes, everything was agreed unanimously and he closed the meeting.  25 minutes for an agenda with half a dozen really important items.

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'Speedy Sherlock'... I rather like that and it's much nicer that some of the things I get called :lol: 

The way that meeting was held sounds awful and I thought they had big discussions.  Is there any point in them holding meetings if no comments are made and there is no discussion or Q&A's etc. 
I've not been to an executive board meeting for quite a few years now and they never used to be like that at all, in most of the fact most of the ones I went to members were often very vocal and questions could be asked too.  They went on for ages but maybe that was because there was more of a balance of people on them from the different parties and they had different views and reasoning although the subject matters were rather more indepth too. 

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Steve. Come back!

 

You've missed the bit where we compare Warrington's recycling rates with towns with better facilities than the ones you plan to close and restrict, including Stockport. I concede the point about population by the way. My apologies. I just looked at Stockport rather than the Borough. Still, a £12 million saving and a 50 percent higher rate of recycling because of better recycling facilities is an improvement on a couple of hundred thousand saving with worse, don't you agree?  

 

http://www.letsrecycle.com/councils/league-tables-1/2012-13-overall-performance

 

Interesting how poor Liverpool City Council is in that league table. Under 25 percent. Is that our new benchmark?

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At the end of the day every council is having to really scrutinise expenditure and make difficult decisions.  This is nothing new - its been happening annually since the start of the crash in 2006/7.  The need to save money isn't disputed.  The questions are: why not consider ways to keep the three tips open, why keep the decision secret, why deliberately keep ward councillors in the dark (well some anyway) and why start a 'mini roadshow'?  David Keane turned up unannounced (well the Lib Dem councillors didn't know he was coming) to Stockton Heath Parish Council on Tuesday as ' a resident' (Lymm) Apparently the answer might be big skips being dropped in various locations for residents to take their stuff to. Oh and the two green bins idea might return.  

Exec Board on Monday will be interesting!

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Did Stockton Heath Parish Council agree to put in any sort of objection to the closure or anything Ann ?  I wonder if David Keane just went along for a nosey to hear what was being said to give him more time to come up with  counter arguments for his next report.  Personally I would have thrown him out  :wink:

Not knowing exactly what was said so maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but who suggested the big skips ?

Where exactly would these alternative skips be placed and how often would they need to be emptied ?  Other than the forge car park I can't think of anywhere in Stockton Heath where a large communal skip could go.  Who would pay for these skips too as they are not cheap to hire and I'd imagine they would fill up very quickly so would have to be replaced very frequently.... oh and they could be a fire hazard if they are not enclosed ... and unless they were manned there would be no control at all over what was put in them and by who (trade waste included)

It sounds a daft idea to me so far.

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Did Stockton Heath Parish Council agree to put in any sort of objection to the closure or anything Ann ?  I wonder if David Keane just went along for a nosey to hear what was being said to give him more time to come up with  counter arguments for his next report.  Personally I would have thrown him out  :wink:

 

Not knowing exactly what was said so maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but who suggested the big skips ?

 

Where exactly would these alternative skips be placed and how often would they need to be emptied ?  Other than the forge car park I can't think of anywhere in Stockton Heath where a large communal skip could go.  Who would pay for these skips too as they are not cheap to hire and I'd imagine they would fill up very quickly so would have to be replaced very frequently.... oh and they could be a fire hazard if they are not enclosed ... and unless they were manned there would be no control at all over what was put in them and by who (trade waste included)

 

It sounds a daft idea to me so far.

Stockton Heath Parish Council sent a letter to WBC asking for the closure to be deferred ending a proper consultation.  David Keane said he had seen that letter earlier in the day and decided to come to the Parish Council 'as a resident'.  He was, however, invited by the Chair to address the meeting.  He talked about his idea for recycling to happen closer to communities, to reduce traffic on the road and mentioned the idea of skips, dropped on certain dates in various areas.  His argument is that this would reduce the distance residents would have to go to take their recycling/rubbish.  My argument would be that residents would not have the facilities to hang onto multiple bags or large items until a skip materialises.  As an example, I had a fridge freezer and a washing machine delivered yesterday.  All the packaging will need to go to the tip today because there is far too much to store. I don't think he was talking about permanent skips.  More the way GGHT uses them, where residents are notified of the day they will be dropped and collected.  He also mentioned Stretton as an idea worth looking at for green waste.  I don't get the impression that any of these ideas have been thoroughly costed.

The Exec Board meeting is today at 6.30pm at the Town Hall and is open to the public.

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 I don't get the impression that any of these ideas have been thoroughly costed.

 

Or thought through. How exactly will this idea reduce traffic, as he suggests? What's to stop people using the skips for anything, including trade waste, as Dizzy points out? How will it be communicated? What sites will be included?

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I reckon that WBC are simply relying on Stockton Heath residents starting to use Runcorn tip and Lymm residents using Dunham thus shuffling the waste out of the borough altogether - until Halton and Trafford start asking people for proof of residence in their boroughs of course!

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The response of David Keane to the scrutiny committee report is here: 

http://cmis.warrington.gov.uk/cmis5/Document.ashx?czJKcaeAi5tUFL1DTL2UE4zNRBcoShgo=yXTmP0o5OQ%2bNnHuL3ZCAL823L%2bzL5UwoDOdXZ%2fsYSxrlVGOVQ9PYMw%3d%3d&rUzwRPf%2bZ3zd4E7Ikn8Lyw%3d%3d=pwRE6AGJFLDNlh225F5QMaQWCtPHwdhUfCZ%2fLUQzgA2uL5jNRG4jdQ%3d%3d&mCTIbCubSFfXsDGW9IXnlg%3d%3d=hFflUdN3100%3d&kCx1AnS9%2fpWZQ40DXFvdEw%3d%3d=hFflUdN3100%3d&uJovDxwdjMPoYv%2bAJvYtyA%3d%3d=ctNJFf55vVA%3d&FgPlIEJYlotS%2bYGoBi5olA%3d%3d=NHdURQburHA%3d&d9Qjj0ag1Pd993jsyOJqFvmyB7X0CSQK=ctNJFf55vVA%3d&WGewmoAfeNR9xqBux0r1Q8Za60lavYmz=ctNJFf55vVA%3d&WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA%3d

 

He will be recommending to exec board tonight that a 4 week (not 6 weeks as recommended by the scrutiny committee) public consultation is undertaken to seek views on recycling facilities across the borough.

 

Point 4.6 also says the exec board is requested to learn from this case to ensure that each publication of the Forward Plan contains sufficient detail to enable any significant implications of proposed decisions to be easily identified. i.e. don't conceal things!

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A 4 week consolation agreed by Exec Board, though we believe 6 weeks is needed because parish councils don't meet in August and this is also the time when people may be on holiday.  

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4 weeks doesn't sound very long but maybe that's because they have already chosen the new management company so they need to get things sorted quickly. 

When does the consultation period start and how are they doing it ? 
 
Sorry if it say in the link report but I've not got time to read it now but I will do later.

 

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We have no details about the consultation yet.  We have asked when it will begin. The idea of making it only 4 weeks instead of the 6 recommended by the scrutiny committee is so they could consult, analyse and report back to the next Exec Board meeting in September.

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So it's not even going to be a 4 week consultation then.

 

More like a couple of weeks of working hard to make it impossible for ordinary people to make their voices heard, followed by a fortnight of massaging some figures, making up some unattributed positive responses, twisting other peoples words and selectively editing their submissions, and giving massively undue prominence to any genuine responses received which support the closure - before producing a report which tells the exec exactly what they want to hear.

 

Or am I being unduly cynical?

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I don't think so. You missed out the bit where they draw up a plan to plonk an occasional unmanned skip down in Appleton and crow about it as if it's a good idea and a sign that they're looking after the interests of people on the wrong side of the Mersey.

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Is anyone (workers or others) currently monitoring how many people/cars are using Stockton Heath tip daily and at what times.   Those figures could come in handy for consultation input purposes.

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