Coffee Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Well there you go. I think this forum works best when people aren't personal.I'm pointing out inverted snobbery in others and a political class within the council who think that the people who don't vote for them don't deserve services or investment. As I've already said, I'd be against it if it worked the other way too and you calling me a 'snob' just confirms why you think the people of South Warrington don't deserve the same facilities or services as those in the North. Your the one who suggests the area needs improving, you are suggesting the 40,000 people who live south of the MSC contribute more then anyone else and you are also separating yourself from the rest of Warrington, !!!! No one is saying it does not deserve the same service, but then if the majority of people live in the North then it follows the majority of money will be spent there. If you feel so strongly about the tip, volunteer to take it over. A community bid does not have to go through all the procedures a company has to. Apart for one project I do not see huge amounts of money spent around here, as I speak the grass in knee high on the streets. By the way, the tip from me is 2 miles and 7 minutes away, from London Rd to the tip at Woolston it is 3.7 miles and 12 minutes, not a huge track. In reality there should be a lot more tips around Warrington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 The problem is Coffee that the Council itself is saying people in the South don't deserve the same services and investment. They also say that people and businesses in the South need to pay more for things like parking so that people in the rest of Warrington don't have to. That is official policy. And the reason they say those things is to do with their politics and their prejudices. I suggest you go back over what I've said including me saying I hope the Orford Hub does what it sets out to do, that all people deserve to be treated in the same way regardless of where they live and that Warrington has nice and not so nice people and places on both sides of the canal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Blimey Coffee If you can get from London Road to the tip at Woolston in 12 minutes then you must drive very fast indeed and never stop at any of the traffic lights or junctions. Do you drive that way often eek ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 The problem is Coffee that the Council itself is saying people in the South don't deserve the same services and investment. They also say that people and businesses in the South need to pay more for things like parking so that people in the rest of Warrington don't have to. That is official policy. And the reason they say those things is to do with their politics and their prejudices. The same ones that you are displaying. I suggest you go back over what I've said including me saying I hope the Orford Hub does what it sets out to do, that all people deserve to be treated in the same way regardless of where they live and that Warrington has nice and not so nice people and places on both sides of the canal. Then ask yourself who is the snob. Sorry Grey Man maybe I should have not called you a snob, but it is the improving the area bit that I find offensive, as if orford was some sort of slum. Where is this official policy, is it a the fact you have to pay a little to park your car? Your council tax is less then Birchwood for example and no higher then the rest of Warrington - give or take a few pounds - despite the value of houses being much higher If you choose to live in an area were there are fewer people you have to expect fewer services. When I lived in Wales we had no gas, buses stopped running at 6.30, we had to take the bins 300 yards to a main road for bins to be collected, no tip, no street lights yet the council tax was the same. I guess it depends on what time your trying to do the journey Dizzy, but that was according to Google maps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 If you choose to live in an area were there are fewer people you have to expect fewer services. ........ Coffee, where you say an 'area with fewer people' where do you mean ? The link I posted earlier also has another section for various other document downloads. It's interesting when you look at the 4 'zone' areas of Warrington ie Central, East, West and South (there doesn't appear to be a 'North' now as that's called 'Central') Anyway.... from the individual downloads for each of the 4 areas South Warrington was actually the second largest by population !! The figures (based on the ONS) at the time the councils documents were produced are shown as follows Warrington West - population 58,200 Warrington South - 49,000 Warrington East - population 48,300 Warrington Central - population 46,118 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Sorry Grey Man maybe I should have not called you a snob, but it is the improving the area bit that I find offensive, as if orford was some sort of slum. Where is this official policy, is it a the fact you have to pay a little to park your car? Your council tax is less then Birchwood for example and no higher then the rest of Warrington - give or take a few pounds - despite the value of houses being much higher If you choose to live in an area were there are fewer people you have to expect fewer services. When I lived in Wales we had no gas, buses stopped running at 6.30, we had to take the bins 300 yards to a main road for bins to be collected, no tip, no street lights yet the council tax was the same. I guess it depends on what time your trying to do the journey Dizzy, but that was according to Google maps Fair enough but that was never my intention. WRT to the car parking situation, that was the point that the council's approach became clear to me. They left themselves a hostage to fortune by setting an objective of achieving a surplus across the parking function but then deciding that the surplus should come from particular areas while others ran at a loss. It was no coincidence that they targeted businesses and people in South Warrington for additional income. I can only see that as political and prejudiced. I think the same is true of this latest decision. We don't live in a Snowdonian hamlet. We live in an area with tens of thousands of other people and they have decided that some of them are more worthy of services than others. It would have been the simplest thing in the world to maintain a tip on both sides of the town but they haven't. They've made a decision that shows them up for what they are. It's genuinely unpleasant and it would be if the boot were on the other foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 19, 2014 Report Share Posted June 19, 2014 Coffee, where you say an 'area with fewer people' where do you mean ? The link I posted earlier also has another section for various other document downloads. It's interesting when you look at the 4 'zone' areas of Warrington ie Central, East, West and South (there doesn't appear to be a 'North' now as that's called 'Central') Anyway.... from the individual downloads for each of the 4 areas South Warrington was actually the second largest by population !! The figures (based on the ONS) at the time the councils documents were produced are shown as follows Warrington West - population 58,200 Warrington South - 49,000 Warrington East - population 48,300 Warrington Central - population 46,118 that takes in Latchford and Winderspool while South of Warrington within these Forums seem to mean South of the MSC, such as Stockton Heath and Lymm. I do not have the figures - and I usually look these things up before posting - but what I am trying to get at is if you put a facility in somewhere along the A49 or the A56 in the North of the town, because the areas are more densely populated and because of the business parks this end of town more peple have access to them the if you put them in Stockton Heath I mean why are all the car showrooms and super stores this end of town? Fair enough but that was never my intention. WRT to the car parking situation, that was the point that the council's approach became clear to me. They left themselves a hostage to fortune by setting an objective of achieving a surplus across the parking function but then deciding that the surplus should come from particular areas while others ran at a loss. It was no coincidence that they targeted businesses and people in South Warrington for additional income. I can only see that as political and prejudiced. I think the same is true of this latest decision. We don't live in a Snowdonian hamlet. We live in an area with tens of thousands of other people and they have decided that some of them are more worthy of services than others. It would have been the simplest thing in the world to maintain a tip on both sides of the town but they haven't. They've made a decision that shows them up for what they are. It's genuinely unpleasant and it would be if the boot were on the other foot. Sorry Grey Man but what areas are comparing, there are no other shopping areas like at Lymm and SH in Warrington. The charge is not exessive, how much is the car park a £1 for 3 hours? I parked in Chester the other day and found I had to pay £7.00. No it is not a out of the way place, but lots of places don't have tips in their area. Let us now for arguments sake say that the land needs to be sold, where would you relocate it? PS: Took a car for a test drive today, as soon as I got over the bridge into Stockton Heath it began to run badly and gave in on Walton Rd, any of you responsible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 that takes in Latchford and Winderspool while South of Warrington within these Forums seem to mean South of the MSC, such as Stockton Heath and Lymm. I do not have the figures - and I usually look these things up before posting - but what I am trying to get at is if you put a facility in somewhere along the A49 or the A56 in the North of the town, because the areas are more densely populated and because of the business parks this end of town more peple have access to them the if you put them in Stockton Heath I mean why are all the car showrooms and super stores this end of town? Sorry Grey Man but what areas are comparing, there are no other shopping areas like at Lymm and SH in Warrington. The charge is not exessive, how much is the car park a £1 for 3 hours? I parked in Chester the other day and found I had to pay £7.00. No it is not a out of the way place, but lots of places don't have tips in their area. Let us now for arguments sake say that the land needs to be sold, where would you relocate it? PS: Took a car for a test drive today, as soon as I got over the bridge into Stockton Heath it began to run badly and gave in on Walton Rd, any of you responsible? These are local shops and a local medical centre, not Chester City Centre. How many other medical centres in Warrington do you need to pay to park? There's another question for you to ignore . You might also notice that supermarkets don't even charge people 5p to park outside because they know people are put off by the ball ache of it all. Also, the problem isn't just about the cost but the fact that when it comes to things like the medical centre, people don't have control over how long they will be, so many are caught out and, believe me, the wardens will issue a fine the second you are late. The problem is so bad the medical centre has expressed their concerns about it officially because what you really need after medical treatment, possibly being given some very bad news indeed, is to find the council have slapped you for £25 because your appointment overran by 35 seconds. As for the local shops, their concern is that the pricing structure coupled with draconian traffic wardens mean people simply spend less time shopping and going for some food or drink. Again, perhaps you can contrast this with what happens elsewhere. All you need to really understand this issue is to reverse it. The council decides that it needs to make a 'surplus' (mustn't say profit because that would be illegal) on its parking function across the whole of the Borough. There are car parks that make a profit (oops) in Orford and Penketh. Everything else is loss making. So the Council, led by a Tory councillor in Stockton Heath, decides that the best thing is to get more money out of those two car parks so that the people in his ward don't have to pay and the additional income should be generated where it doesn't affect him and the cost falls on people he doesn't even think deserve the same local facilities as the people in his own area. It's really as simple as that. Unforgivable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inky pete Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 that takes in Latchford and Winderspool while South of Warrington within these Forums seem to mean South of the MSC, such as Stockton Heath and Lymm. The border has always been the Mersey not the Ship Canal, so Latchford and the Wilderspool area have always been Cheshire, whereas all areas of the borough north of the river were until 1974 Lancashire. And BTW, Orford Lane has significantly more shops and services business than Lymm - but all the little off-street car parks round there are free. Same story in Latchford village which, although it is in South Warrington, is as you point out often identified as being in the North and treated as such by WBC (because Latchford generally votes Labour, perhaps????) The interesting point from Diz's figures about the 4 Warrington areas is that they each have broadly similar populations. Geographically, anyone in Warrington South would tend to use Sandy Lane tip - using anywhere else probably means getting through the town centre, anyone in Warrington West would naturally use Gateworth, and anyone in Warrington East would of course use Woolston. Warrington Central residents have pretty easy access to all three and would tend to use whichever one is on the side of the town centre they happen to be on. So given 3 generally equal areas of the town each served by a tip, why close one at all? and if you absolutely must - why close the one which would force all of its regular users to increase the congestion at the towns major bottlenecks, namely the ship canal and river crossings? To choose Sandy Lane is quite obviously a decision based on political considerations rather than service provision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 Has anyone contacted their local councilor's or parish council's about the tip/recycling centre closure yet ? I have been told that Walton Parish Council apparently didn't know anything about it and weren't informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 The minutes from Stockton Heath Parish Council don't mention it so we can assume they didn't know either. Standard MO for the council when they know they're doing something they shouldn't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I wonder what the usage figures of the tips are? As for parking the Orford car park is tiny and the shops not exactly busy, people who live in SH claim it is their village, you pay if you want to park in the center , the ones in Orford Lane are just local shops. The latchford one is it owned by the council? You have to pay at the medical center in Lovelly Lane If you feel you do not want to pay the 50 pence or pound, park in Morrisons and walk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I wonder what the usage figures of the tips are? No idea and it didn't say in the report it just mentions percentages which means nothing really unless you know it's a % of a certain actual figure. I can't find anything else online re the level of usage or the amount of waste taken there on the councils website either. You could probably get it all under a FOI request though.....but by then it would be too late anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I wonder what the usage figures of the tips are? As for parking the Orford car park is tiny and the shops not exactly busy, people who live in SH claim it is their village, you pay if you want to park in the center , the ones in Orford Lane are just local shops. The latchford one is it owned by the council? You have to pay at the medical center in Lovelly Lane If you feel you do not want to pay the 50 pence or pound, park in Morrisons and walk Amazing. So your entire argument to the clear discrimination against people in certain parts of town is 'shut up and cough up and stop complaining while your services are removed'. I wonder if it would be the same if the boot were on the other foot. People who use the shops in Stockton Heath have always contributed to the coffers of the council. The problem here is that they are being asked to contribute more so that people in other parts of town don't have to. It's remarkable you think that is OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Let's just face it Grey_man a lot of people will never change their views about South Warrington or indeed the people who live here no matter what is said or shown to be fact. There's no point in stressing about it as no matter what you say they will always disagree (that is not aimed directly at you by the way Coffee but you too do seem to have similar views from what you have said on here and other local topics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Received through the letterbox today for anyone who hasn't received a copy. Not sure why I got one as he's not actually my ward councilor but maybe he is spreading out a little. I wont make comment yet other than to say the bit about it being 'welcomed by a significant number of people' nearly made me choke on my drink when I read it. I guess he probably means the whinging buggers in the 'newer' flats on London Road that back onto it who have moaned and wanted it closed since the day they moved in.... and apart from which there are not a 'significant number of people' living on Sandy Lane which is the only access to the tip anyway... oh and it's used as a cut through from the two main roads to skip the lights and congestion in the village (ie Grappenhall Road to London Road and vice versa) anyway so closing it wont really make a huge amount of difference 'general' traffic wise ) CLICK TO ENLARGEreverse of leaflet...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Let's just face it Grey_man a lot of people will never change their views about South Warrington or indeed the people who live here no matter what is said or shown to be fact. There's no point in stressing about it as no matter what you say they will always disagree (that is not aimed directly at you by the way Coffee but you too do seem to have similar views from what you have said on here and other local topics). Unfair Dizzy, it is not me with the attitude that The South as a generator of income, the North as the place it gets spent. I am just responding to such attitudes. Maybe the people in the South will never change their attitude either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Amazing. So your entire argument to the clear discrimination against people in certain parts of town is 'shut up and cough up and stop complaining while your services are removed'. I wonder if it would be the same if the boot were on the other foot. People who use the shops in Stockton Heath have always contributed to the coffers of the council. The problem here is that they are being asked to contribute more so that people in other parts of town don't have to. It's remarkable you think that is OK. 50 Pence! Such an injustice, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted June 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 But Coffee you are the one slagging the South off, I'm not slagging the South, North, East or West off Most of my neighbours have lived or grew up in other parts of Warrington such as Bewsey, Howley, Orford, Latchford etc etc (ooh the other side of those evil waters) so are they ok ?How long have you lived in Warrington by the way and how many times have you visited Stockton Heath, Lymm, Latchford etc or shopped there regularly ? Just wondered that's all so don't take it personally as I'm not having a go at you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I am not slagging it off in any way, both Lymm and SH are really nice places. I slagging off peoples attitudes, who somehow think they are contributing more because they live South of the canal, who wish to separate from Warrington and join up with Knutsford and Wilmslow. I find it odd that some people who live in Stockton heath insist they live in a village not Warrington. Lived in Warrington until i was twelve, come back seven years ago when i got a job on the industrial estate at Winwick PS EDited to add some people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Unfair Dizzy, it is not me with the attitude thatI am just responding to such attitudes. Maybe the people in the South will never change their attitude either. Fact. You asked me for examples of the council investing in wards in the North of the town. I gave you it. I asked you for examples of the council investing in facilities in the South. Silence. In fact, as we can see, they are actively withdrawing them. As for the point about revenue generation, that is proved by the targetting of shops in the South. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want a feeling of unity across the town, you wont get it with a council that makes decisions based on politics and prejudice and people like you whose entire attitude boils down to 'f@$* them'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 50 Pence! Such an injustice, As I said the problem is not the amount but the fact it discourages people from spending their time and money with local businesses. Ever wondered why the Trafford Centre doesn't ask people to predict how long they are going to be then have wardens slap people with fines the second they are late? Ever wondered why medical centres don't do the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Received through the letterbox today for anyone who hasn't received a copy. Not sure why I got one as he's not actually my ward councilor but maybe he is spreading out a little. I wont make comment yet other than to say the bit about it being 'welcomed by a significant number of people' nearly made me choke on my drink when I read it. I guess he probably means the whinging buggers in the 'newer' flats on London Road that back onto it who have moaned and wanted it closed since the day they moved in.... and apart from which there are not a 'significant number of people' living on Sandy Lane which is the only access to the tip anyway... oh and it's used as a cut through from the two main roads to skip the lights and congestion in the village (ie Grappenhall Road to London Road and vice versa) anyway so closing it wont really make a huge amount of difference 'general' traffic wise ) CLICK TO ENLARGE reverse of leaflet...... The actions of a man who knows how this looks. I notice his bullet points are full of 'looking into' and 'considering'. ie Nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Fact. You asked me for examples of the council investing in wards in the North of the town. I gave you it. I asked you for examples of the council investing in facilities in the South. Silence.In fact, as we can see, they are actively withdrawing them. As for the point about revenue generation, that is proved by the targetting of shops in the South. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want a feeling of unity across the town, you wont get it with a council that makes decisions based on politics and prejudice and people like you whose entire attitude boils down to 'f@$* them'. As I said the problem is not the amount but the fact it discourages people from spending their time and money with local businesses. Ever wondered why the Trafford Centre doesn't ask people to predict how long they are going to be then have wardens slap people with fines the second they are late? Ever wondered why medical centres don't do the same? Grey Man you gave me one example, which is now a few years old and partly I agree with you, the 30 million should have been used to refurbish the centers it already had, including the old baths. HOwever if a new facility was to be built where would you have put it, asked you this before? The Trafford Center car park is not owned by the councils. They charge for car parking in the town center. Most Hospitals in England charge for parking, they do in Warrington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grey_man Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 I have no problem with the investment in Orford. I've said that before. What I have a problem with, as I've also said, is that when it comes to a decision about the closure of facilities we know which one this council will choose. They do not make these decisions based on the needs of residents but on political grounds. On that basis, local people would be better off under a different administration. The point stands about charging people for parking at shops and aggressively targeting them for fines. It deters people, so this council is actively harming local businesses. The shop owners in SH have told the council this but they simply don't care because it means they can make a profit over the whole borough without affecting Labour wards. And we aren't talking about hospitals, we are talking about a local medical centre which the council expects people to be able to predict how long they will be in an appointment or - in your case - park somewhere else and walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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