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More EU meddling.....


Bazj

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Baz you actually think they have outlawed it to up set you, and have no proof, part of the reason they banned it was when it's scrapped it goes into land fill, breaks down and you end up with a carcidgen in the ground and from their it can get into water.

 

Inky I had no idea diamonds were a carcidogen, you had better let the Ladies know as they think they are their best friend. :wink:

 

I think you mean Carbon black????.

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Baz you actually think they have outlawed it to up set you, and have no proof, part of the reason they banned it was when it's scrapped it goes into land fill, breaks down and you end up with a carcidgen in the ground and from their it can get into water.

 

Chromed scrap metal goes into landfill???? well that's a new one on me Kije, I always thought it went into the back of a transit flatbed truck along with bikes, fridges and old road signs!

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The EU recently banned the chemicals known to be harmful to bees, Britain didn't want to. They like to delay and delay and delay by questioning any and all of the science wanting a level of proof that is impossible to achieve.  Thats how they support their vested interests and keep the lobbyists quiet and onside.  All the time the bees and other creatures are dying off.

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Baz you actually think they have outlawed it to up set you, and have no proof, part of the reason they banned it was when it's scrapped it goes into land fill, breaks down and you end up with a carcidgen in the ground and from their it can get into water. Inky I had no idea diamonds were a carcidogen, you had better let the Ladies know as they think they are their best friend. :wink: I think you mean Carbon black????.

 

Yep, Carbon Black.

 

As used in soft pencils (not banned, even though children regularly bite and suck on them), car tyres (not banned, even though it ends up on the roads as the tyre wears and gets washed into the wider environment), photocopier and laser printer toner (not banned, even though toner cartridges quite often get dropped or split releasing fine powder Carbon Black into the air we breathe), food packaging including the trays of microwave meals, and even food colourings as EU approved additive E152.

 

It's been a known carcinogen for many years - dating back to cases related to Black Lung in coal miners - but it still isn't banned. Instead, within Europe and the US there are strict regulations and safety protocols applied to the workers and workplaces where it is manufactured and used. But we've all seen, and possibly bought, cheap car tyres or toner cartridges from China. And we're probably quite happy in our ignorance of the fact that many "Western" brand tyres and toner cartridges are actually now manufactured in China. Their workers have no such protections so our desire for a cheap product is costing them their health or even their lives.

 

Exactly the same sort of regulatory regime has already been applied to companies and workers who handle Chrome 6 in developed nations, but a ban on cosmetic Chrome 6 will simply migrate not only the business in cosmetic chroming but also the industrial work as well to where it will kill the most workers.

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Most pencils are made from graphite these days, carbon black comes from very inefficient burning of carbon, graphite dust,which is generated in milling ect, is not good for you, but chewing on the odd pencil lead is ok,

 

Carbon black can be made in to graphite, at which time it becomes safe.

 

The whole point of the EU ban is to stop More Chrome 6 getting into land fill, the problem with Chrome 6 is when it starts to break down, not in it's manufacture.

 

In yours and Baz's quest to get one over on the EU, you forgot the reason why the EU are doing it, and concentrated on your right to pollute as you see fit, and sod everyone else!

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As I said, Carbon Black is used in soft pencils. It's what makes the graphite blacker.

 

If the problem is allegedly chrome 6 going into landfill (which it isn't, but I'll come to that later) then tackle the problem at that end, don't use a sledgehammer to crack a nut and effectively legislate the whole industry out of the EU.

 

What is there in this action to stop existing chromed products going into landfill? Or imported chromed products in the future?

 

But let's just tackle your fundamental ignorance of basic chemistry, Chrome, and the chroming process.

 

Hexavalent Chromium describes any compound of Chromium where the Chromium ion is in the +6 oxidation state, examples include chromium trioxide and sodium dichromate. These compounds are not "chrome", they are not shiny, nor are they metallic.

 

In the Chrome electroplating process the hexavalent chromium compound is dissolved in an acidic solution, the item to be chromed is dipped in and a negative electric current is applied. This causes the Chromium atoms to be attracted to the item, gain 6 electrons each from the electric charge - which changes their oxidation state from +6 to 0 - and plate onto the item as pure, metallic, zero-valent, Chromium.

 

Once the item has been removed from the solution and rinsed there is NO hexavalent chromium present!

 

Trivalent chromium, with an initial oxidation state of +3, can be used in the same way but precisely because it only has a +3 charge it is not attracted anywhere near as strongly to the item being plated and does not form anywhere near as durable or aesthetically pleasing coating.

 

So once again you've been proven to be wrong. The carcinogen problem, such as it is, does not exist in disposal of chromed items - because the hexavalent chromium is destroyed in the electro-plating process. The carcinogen problem can easily be tackled by ensuring that workers wear appropriate protective equipment and that factory wastes are correctly contained and treated before disposal.

 

Or, as the EU has done, by off-shoring the whole process and closing eyes tight shut to the damage it will cause elsewhere!

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The Banned Substances

 

Hexavalent Chrome

 

Also known as Chrome 6 (CR6)

Hexavalent Chrome is a chemical used in the passivation of electro plating and is added to mechanical plating to create a corrosion resistant i.e. Zinc & Clear will have hexavalent chrome in the clear passivate, Dacromet has hex chrome added to the coating.

Hexavalent chrome is carcinogenetic (activates cancer within the body) and has been replaced by Trivalent chrome (also known as Chrome 3 or CR3), which is natural to the environment and the human body, therefore is safe to use and does not have a detrimental affect on the environment.

There are differences in the performance between Hexavalent and Trivalent chrome, Trivalent does not self-repair as does Hexavalent chrome therefore if scratched will rust. This is overcome by applying a wax on top of the passivate. This is called thick Trivalent, not only does it self repair but will then give a greater corrosion resistance. Without the wax the process is called thin Trivalent. There are other alternatives to this that platers may offer i.e. by adding cobalt to the plating.

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Cobalt is pretty toxic stuff in any more than the trace amounts the human body requires, and if it's added to the plating it will be present in the item when it is disposed of.

 

I say again, despite your statements that it is, hexvalent chromium is not present in an chrome plated item. Therefore, there is no way to determine whether an imported item was plated using a hexavalent process or a trivalent process.

 

Where does that leave the EU's ban on selling the products of hexavalent processes within the EU?

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Hexavalent chromium compounds have varied uses in industry and are often used for their anti-corrosive properties in metal coatings, protective paints, dyes and pigments

 

Hence the ban, because as these products reach the end of their useful life they are put into land fill, where they break down and pollute, that's why Baz doesn't want it as his classic cars have parts coated in it, most modern cars use other methods, Most of the Western World are at different stages of prohibiting it, so it's not just the EU, Baz does not like the EU, so he holds them responsible, but the facts are if he lived in the USA, he might get another couple of years. But they are doing the same their, the legislation has hit delays their, but it is only a question of time.

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Hexavalent chromium is present in some dyes and pigments used in inks, paints, wood preservatives and metal coatings (that's protective metal paints, not electroplating) - it's a dark green colour if it's chromium trioxide (Cr2O3) or a bright yellow if it's lead chromate (PbCrO4). But the printing and paints industries have been gradually phasing both out for years anyway as acceptable alternatives have been developed.

 

Hexavalent chromium is used in the production of chrome plated parts, but it is not present in the part once it has been plated!

 

So it's not going to get into landfill from chrome plated parts, coz they don't contain any!

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No, just me verses the EU. Chrome plating using hexavalent chromium is not being banned in the US or in Australia or in New Zealand - the process is just being regulated like any other potentially hazardous industrial chemical.

 

Me verses the EU-philes may seem like an unfair fight, but I'll promise not to completely humiliate you.

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Well inky, it's you verses the Western World, I hope you don't mind I'll go with the Western World and there science rather than your googling skills :wink:

 

Says the copy and paste king of Warrington!

 

At least with me it's not just blind faith in whatever's on the EU propaganda site - on this issue the A'level in Chemistry and the Engineering degree with two semesters of Metallurgy helped!

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I have A level chemistry inky and Biology, I went into electrical engineering, so are you going to take your case to the Western World and tell them they are wrong and you are right or do you accept that they are right?

 

After all you have an engineering degree and two semesters in metallurgy, I am sure they will listen and thank you, they might even give you another Doctorate, but some how we both know that's not going to happen, which makes you and your argument wrong. Blame the EU all you want but we both know it's not them. Which was the point of the thread, I've done what I came here to do, Baz blamed the EU, turns out the EU are not alone in doing it most of the world is joining them in doing it.

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The fact remains that despite your Chemistry A'level and your electrical engineering degree and the understanding of basic science they should have given you, YOU made the assertion that hexavalent chromium could make its way into landfill as a result of dumping chrome plated parts - even though I've shown you the electro-chemical reaction which proves that chrome plated parts contain absolutely no hexavalent chromium.

 

Do you still stand by that statement?

 

There are good reasons to regulate the use and disposal of hexavalent chromium, but a total ban is a typical EU sledgehammer to crack a nut solution which globally will cause more harm than good.

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Says the copy and paste king of Warrington!

 

At least with me it's not just blind faith in whatever's on the EU propaganda site - on this issue the A'level in Chemistry and the Engineering degree with two semesters of Metallurgy helped!

but nowhere near as much as your search engine did :wink:

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Inky you have proved nothing at all, sorry about that, so are you going to take your findings to the EU or the Americans for that matter, see if you can persuade them.

 

I thought this thread was about Baz blaming the EU, I had no idea it was about you trying to get one up, sadly your degree does not cover that :wink:

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Inky you have proved nothing at all, sorry about that, so are you going to take your findings to the EU or the Americans for that matter, see if you can persuade them. I thought this thread was about Baz blaming the EU, I had no idea it was about you trying to get one up, sadly your degree does not cover that :wink:

 

Can you guess which ones are true?

 

  1. Banana's should not be too bendy.
  2. Waters does not hydrate you.
  3. Popular British snack "Bombay Mix" had to change its name to "Mumbai Mix".
  4. Prunes are not laxatives.
  5. Barmaids cannot show their cleavage when serving customers.
  6. Turnips cannot be labelled "swedes", except in one place.
  7. Corgis are banned.
  8. Diabetics are banned from driving.
  9. Eggs cannot be sold by the dozen.
  10. European sports teams have to have the European flag on their uniforms.

 

 

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Inky you have proved nothing at all, sorry about that, so are you going to take your findings to the EU or the Americans for that matter, see if you can persuade them. I thought this thread was about Baz blaming the EU, I had no idea it was about you trying to get one up, sadly your degree does not cover that :wink:

 

No, this thread was started with an article arguing that the EU should grant chrome electro-plating of car parts and other decorative items the same exceptions to the EU ban on hexavalent chromium as they have already granted to the chrome electro-plating of other industrial components. And, incidentally, assume the same stance on the process as has been taken in the US and the rest of the developed world where its use in electroplating is not banned and is not going to be banned, but is regulated by the various environmental protection agencies.

 

The fact that the EU has granted exceptions at all means that they recognise the hexavalent electro-plating process can be carried out in a safe and controlled manner.

 

It was you who invented the whole landfill contamination from chromed parts rubbish, and now you're desperately trying to gloss over the fact that you deliberately tried to mislead anyone else reading this thread.

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I have not mislead anyone, most of the rest of the World are doing the same as the EU, as you know as I assume you have checked, iCan I suggest you reads Baz's first post to find what the thread was about.

 

So with the exceptions, is Baz's first post wrong?

 

A simple yes or no will do

 

Also took a tip from you and googled :wink:

 

According to the Toxics Release Inventory, in 1997, the estimated releases of chromium was 111,384 pounds to water from 3,391 large processing facilities which accounted for about 0.3% of total environmental releases [ATSDR 2000].

 

Electroplating, leather tanning, and textile industries release relatively large amounts of chromium in surface waters. Leaching from topsoil and rocks is the most important natural source of chromium entry into bodies of water. Solid wastes from chromate-processing facilities, when disposed of improperly in landfills, can be sources of contamination for groundwater, where the chromium residence time might be several years.

 

A survey conducted from 1974 to 1975 provides estimates of chromium concentrations in U.S. drinking water. The survey reported the concentration of chromium in tap water in U.S. households was from 0.4 to 8.0 micrograms per liter (µg/L). [ATSDR 2000] (EPA's maximum contaminant level for chromium in drinking water is 100 µg/L.)

 

You might also find this useful, about the clean up of an electroplating company in Australia

 

http://virotec.com/download/email/web_files/industrial-wastewater-remediation-viroflow/Case%20Study%20Custom%20Chrome.pdf

 

The thread is about Baz complaining and blaming the EU about Chome, As we all know it's happening all over the World and being done for which I am sure you now agree is for the best if reasons

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I have not mislead anyone, most of the rest of the World are doing the same as the EU, as you know as I assume you have checked, iCan I suggest you reads Baz's first post to find what the thread was about.

 

So with the exceptions, is Baz's first post wrong?

 

A simple yes or no will do

 

Also took a tip from you and googled :wink:

 

According to the Toxics Release Inventory, in 1997, the estimated releases of chromium was 111,384 pounds to water from 3,391 large processing facilities which accounted for about 0.3% of total environmental releases [ATSDR 2000].

 

Electroplating, leather tanning, and textile industries release relatively large amounts of chromium in surface waters. Leaching from topsoil and rocks is the most important natural source of chromium entry into bodies of water. Solid wastes from chromate-processing facilities, when disposed of improperly in landfills, can be sources of contamination for groundwater, where the chromium residence time might be several years.

 

A survey conducted from 1974 to 1975 provides estimates of chromium concentrations in U.S. drinking water. The survey reported the concentration of chromium in tap water in U.S. households was from 0.4 to 8.0 micrograms per liter (µg/L). [ATSDR 2000] (EPA's maximum contaminant level for chromium in drinking water is 100 µg/L.)

 

You might also find this useful, about the clean up of an electroplating company in Australia

 

http://virotec.com/download/email/web_files/industrial-wastewater-remediation-viroflow/Case%20Study%20Custom%20Chrome.pdf

 

The thread is about Baz complaining and blaming the EU about Chome, As we all know it's happening all over the World and being done for which I am sure you now agree is for the best if reasons

 

Kije,

 

My original post was about the EU meddling in my life. I did not vote for them to do this...... you did not vote for them to do this; in fact nobody has voted for them to do this. The big difference between the UK and the other countries that you mention; Australia, America etc. is that the changes are being brought in by the elected governments of the countries involved.

 

If changes are required and implemented in the UK, It should be the UK government who changes things; not some unelected, overpaid nobody in Brussels.

 

Whether things are right or wrong, the EU should not be meddling in our way of life until they have a mandate to do so. They have no such mandate and will this will be demonstrated in May.

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