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Nelson Mandela RIP


Lt Kije

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Goes without saying that "apartheid" was an anachronism, just as it was in the southern States of the US, prior to Martin King's crusade. However, there's a huge difference between notional freedom and equality, and it's economic reality. Think the term used is "social mobility", something we still don't fully have in this country imo.

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You can disagree until the cows come home, it still doesn't alter the fact that you keep judging me without any evidence.

 

As for getting back to the subject, apartheid was a system which had come to the end of it's life and would have ended without Mandela being released. Unfortunately for the general population of South Africa the opportunity to create a modern thriving democracy wasn't taken and instead we have another failing one party plutocracy.

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I'm not judging you Asp, pull yourself together, I would agree South Africa is not there yet, it has a long way to go, but it is better and freer without Apartheid, Nelson was just really a figurehead of a movement that brought apartheid down. So do you think South Africa is better without apartheid Asp?

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Have to agree Asp: Mandela was in prison while the trade sanctions and protests were going on. Maybe he was a focus for such activity, but his main achievement was avoiding a civil war by operating a policy of forgiveness and reconciliation; other than that, methinks his current iconic status is rather overplayed by the liberal luvvies. 

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I'm not judging you Asp, pull yourself together, I would agree South Africa is not there yet, it has a long way to go, but it is better and freer without Apartheid, Nelson was just really a figurehead of a movement that brought apartheid down. So do you think South Africa is better without apartheid Asp?

 

Another personal comment :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

It's impossible to judge whether South Africa today would be better or worse today if apartheid had endured as I haven't found the portal into the alternate universe that would allow me to take a look. It's like judging whether the UK today would be better if we hadn't joined the European Community.

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So no opinion on it then Asp, or not one you want to share? I think South Africa is better without apartheid, even though many of it citizens are yet to see any benefit, life as got better for some though.

 

Kije, you are like a frickin' pit bull..... you just keep on and on with the same question but never answer anything yourself when pushed.

 

Is South Africa better without apartheid? Better in what way? Socially, economically? Politically? Morally? It may be better in so much as the blacks are now not subject to the awful segregation they had to suffer but in a lot of ways, SA may be in a worse state than it was during the days of apartheid..... the sign language classes have certainly gone to pot that's for sure

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Baz if you had bothered to read, I have said South Africa is better without Aparthied. Can't understand why Asp will not answer the question, blacks in South Africa now have better access to university's and general education, surly that is a good thing?

 

of course it is a good thing, but apartheid was only one problem in the way the country was run..... it is like in America since they ended segregation; yes they have had a black President, but millions of blacks are still no better off than they were under their apartheid.... it is actually worse in S Africa in some respects because whereas in America the blacks are the minority; in S Africa they are the majority and even with a black majority government they are still oppressed. Not by the whites, but by their own people, their own leaders

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They did Q/time from S/Africa last night; and the texts that came in were mostly disgusted with the idea of discussing S/African politics when we've got our own problems. Unfortunately, this wall to wall coverage by the luvvies at the BBC, is a good indicator of their political affiliations and their detachment from the common herd.

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Lt Kije I have answered your question as well as I can as, in common with you, I can only make a judgement on hearsay evidence and am not willing to do that. Unfortunately this is obviously not the answer you want to hear which is that I fully supported apartheid at the time and mourn its passing, which isn't true. Sorry to disappoint you.

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So, are you saying that anybody who went to pay their respects was a fellow murderer, as you and others here think Mandela clearly was?

 

Another genuine question, were/are there any representatives in attendance from any country who weren't responsible in some way for the deaths of others?

 

Oh, and please spare me any comparisons with Thatcher's passing and media coverage: if you don't get the difference in what they did and what they represent, and why one has much global broader support and appeal than the other, then I'll invoke that unassailable WWW law of, well, you're not living in the real world really.

 

And if nobody's going to have a stab at offering a convincing answer to posts #23 and #66, then some opinions on here are on pretty shaky ground.

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I  think it's fair to say that any country that has experienced any type of regime change has at sometime had a conflict between its government  & opponents who the government regard as terrorists, even though many of the population may call these opponents "freedom fighters". I suppose even the various WW2 resistance units were regarded as terrorists by the Nazi war machine. One thing that does happen is that at sometime a government has to be formed & it may be in the interests of the broader outcome to ignore any or some of the crimes that have been committed to reach that goal, especially on the world stage.

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So let me get this right Asp,

 

You did NOT support apartheid. ( glad to hear it )

 

But you did not support the organisation that opposed the repressive regeme?

 

Have you not just contradicted yourself, as doing nothing is actually supporting the status quo, which was apartheid ?

 

There were no legal means to bring the regeme to an end, as the blacks were outside the regime !!!

 

 

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Where is the contradiction in my not supporting an organisation (the ANC) which was responsible for the deaths of more blacks than the apartheid regime? The same organisation which is now in power and is not doing anything to prevent the brutal murder of countless white farmers? The same organisation which has seen its country become the murder and rape capital of the world? Necklacing has made a comeback don't you know? (The punishment of choice for anyone opposing the PTB).

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It was indifference such as yours that kept a racist regime in power for so long, You seem to be more bothered by white farmers than the miss deeds of the apartheid regime, are you sure colour has nothing to do with your view? I condone any death irrespective of colour, I am sure the police would investigate. You seem to be getting some of your facts from the truth about South Africa web site, do you no anything about the writer?

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Kije.... do you consider Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to be terrorists Terrorists responsible for the murder of countless people even though never charged as such? As head and deputy of the IRA, do you not think them as responsible for the deaths of innocents as the ones who pulled the trigger or detonated the bombs? 

 

Many criminals and terrorists run illegal operations from inside a prison cell; they do not need phones or email. they just need a visitor every so often to whom they can pass on their next round of targets...

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