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asperity

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wait eventually for liberation or collaborate  :wink:

 

Well that's what 99.99% of the French did.... :lol:

 

What about the eyes of the Norwegians and French people Asp,if my Country got invaded I would like to think I would have the guts to act,

 

So are you accepting that blowing up kids in Warrington was just done by Irishmen having the guts to act against the British rule in Northern Ireland Kije? You really haven't thought your argument through have you? You cannot justify what the ANC did without justifying what the IRA did because their goals were the same...

 

Where people see Nelson Mandela as a cuddly old granddad who had a rough time of it in prison... will they have the same impression of Martin McGuinness if he ever gets to his 90's? That cuddly old oppressed Irish Catholic....

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Lt Kije you are comparing apples to ping pong balls trying to compare wartime resistance fighting against armed forces and terrorists blowing up innocent civilians in shopping centres in peace time. Keep wriggling but you're on the hook well and truly.

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The goals were m

Not the same, Baz, The ANC fought racism, The IRA did not, so Baz, if the UK was invaded would you do as Asp would which is nothing ?.and do you agree with Asp that all fights for freedom are acts of terrorism ?

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The goals were not different. Both the ANC and the IRA tried to force governments to change policies by murdering innocent people. Murder cannot be justified whatever your grievance.

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&Asp

 

Not apple with ping bong balls Asp, I have the Norwegian and French resistance fighters down as freedom fighters along with the populations of those Countries, but you on the other hand have them down as terrorists. Which is it ?. And are you still maintaining that you would not lift a finger if this Country was invaded because you might be labelled a terrorist?

 

Baz, I might be wrong but I have you down as someone who would fight if it came down to it for their Country

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I would fight; yes. But I would fight the invading forces not plant bombs in shopping centres to kill children which would make me a resistance fighter not a terrorist.

 

Resistance fighters in WW2 did not attack kids and women, they attacked the armies who had invaded their country by force.

 

The IRA and the ANC didn't just target the soldiers of the occupiers; they planted bombs in offices and shopping centres knowing that innocents would be slaughtered in the process. That is what makes them terrorists and so different from a freedom fighter

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The Norwegians Baz had to blow a ferry up with their own people on it, to stop heavy water going to Germany,essential for atomic bombs in WW2 Baz. How many civilians have the UK killed in the last 10 years in Afganistan and Iraq Baz? The Americans use intelligent missiles but are still killing civilians that happen to be near by.

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There is a difference between fighting the armed forces of a country that has invaded yours, and blowing up unarmed innocent citizens of your own country. Obviously the difference is a tad too subtle for you Lt Kije.

 

I didn't say that Norwegian and French resistance fighters were terrorists, that is a construct all of your own imagination. Keep wriggling but you cannot convince me that a man who took part in the murder of his own countrymen (black and white) for political reasons could be described as anything other than a terrorist and murderer.

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I never said I supported the IRA Asp, that's a construct of your imagination :wink:

 

Political reasons Asp, are not all wars political when it comes down to it.

 

Ps

 

I'm not wriggling off anything quite the opposite. So what were the Norwegian and French resistance fighters in your opinion, I have already pointed out the Norwegians killed their own people. I will make it easier for you, in my opinion they were freedom fighters fighting oppression.

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You said you supported the ANC who used the same tactics as the IRA. Seems to me you are very selective in who you support, didn't you like Gerry Adam's beard or something? Also, do you think the Norwegians were justified in murdering their own countrymen? Why do you call the IRA terrorists and the ANC "Freedom Fighters"? You're the one who is confused over this issue, I'm clear in my mind that Mandela was a terrorist never mind what gloss you and the media try to put on his history.

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I supported the ANC because I agreed with what they were fighting for. I did not support the IRA as I did not support their objective. And I have not called the IRA terrorists, so what were the Norwegians then Asp, you have stilled not answered. It was you that suggested I supported the IRA, I gave you no reason to think that you tried to box the ANC and the IRA together when they plainly not the same. Look at what the ANC were fighting against and for.

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So you don't consider the IRA to be terrorists either Lt Kije? All part of your twisted world view I suppose, where you consider murder of your fellow countrymen justified in the name of whatever ends you consider to be right. The IRA and the ANC come out of the same mould, the bomb and the bullet instead of negotiation.

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Your twisting words Asp, its a sign of desperation, all I have said about the IRA is I did not support what they fought for that is all, and I have not called them terrorists, that is all

And you still have not answered my question, are you going to answer it ?

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Firstly the Norwegian resistance question is a typical red herring from you to avoid embarassment. Secondly, whether or not you supported the IRA campaign or not is beside the point. The fact that you say you supported the ANC campaign says that you support murder of inncent people in pursuit of political ends. To say that wars are political is another red herring to try and divert attention away from your support of a murderous terrorist - Saint Nelson Mandela.

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Not a red herring at all, The Norwegians were fighting for their freedom were they not Asp, So answer the question. Stop wriggling an answer!!!

 

And if Wars are not political what are they??

 

Come to think of it Winston Churchill supported the Norwegian freedom fighters with guns and explosives  did he not Asp, What are your views on him??????

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Of course these are red herrings. The question isn't about my opinion on Norwegians in WW2 but rather why you refuse to accept that a man who co-founded an organisation that murdered innocent people in South Africa is a terrorist? You are desperately trying to draw attention away from this because deep down you know I'm right but are unwilling to accept it.

 

I'm now expecting your stock answer that, of course, you are right and it was all Maggie's fault.

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You are avoiding the questions again Asp, You asked me a question I answered, I have asked you  2 questions now and you have avoided both, You have avoided answering because to do so would undermine your position. You know and I know it, I fear you have lost again.

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But the questions you are asking me are just there to avoid admitting that you support a terrorist. That is the point and there is no getting away from it. What I believe here is irrelevant because I am not professing to support a man who has caused the deaths of innocent people through a bombing campaign. You, however, have stated that you supported his organisation. That is the crux of the matter and the sooner you face up to reality the sooner you will realise how misplaced that support was.

 

By the way, I have been to Africa, North, South, East and West and the living standards of the South Africans, even under apartheid, were far better than the majority of Africans enjoy even today, under their own rule. Reality sucks sometimes.

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You are saying you do not support any violence, and answering those questions would undermine you.

 

 Are you going to answer, I would very much like to know what you think the Norwegian freedom fighters are and your opinion of Mr Churchill who supported and and gave them arms. 

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What the hell has WW 2, Norway and Winston Churchill got to do with your misplaced support for a terrorist organisation in South Africa? Red herrings all the way.

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The ANC like the Norwegians in WW2 were both fighting for the same thing freedom from oppression 

 

And Winston supported the Norwegians with arms did he not, something you on your side would not agree with

 

Your still avoiding

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Think they were fighting against foreign nationals (IE Germans), occupying their Country. Something you don't seem bothered about, as long as they come under lorries rather than tanks!

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I would agree Obs but they were fighting for the same thing the ANC were fighting for freedom from Oppression, What do you have Mr Mandela as terrorist or freedom fighter

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