Hitler Rants About The Councils Attitude To Our Historic Buildings

[Steve Parish]

Was the former British Legion building not listed on St Austins Lane?

 

I think you're right - I'd missed that. I'm not sure there was much left of it - I don't know the full history.

[Bazj]

The legion in St Austins Lane was in perfect working order in the mid nineties.... used to go there after work sometimes.... mind you; there are some nice flats on there now paying town centre poll tax rates to boost the council coffers

[Steve Parish]

 

Listing: "Pre 1820. 2-storeyed house of painted stone, with curved gable ends. Glazed doorway
under a lean-to verandah/porch, 3 16-paned sash windows on ground floor and 4 above.
Long staircase window on gable end facing St Austin's Lane, and present (new) entrance." Curved gable ends?

 

Planning consent granted in 2002 for office conversion, but it was then gutted by fire. There wasn't much left of the original interior before the fire, and even less after, and consent was then given for demolition.

 

So that's two listed buildings demolished with Council consent (in over 25 years).

[Coffee]

How about the box works offices on Orford Rd??? Kind of teasing now as I know they were (conveniently) destroyed by fire too, but that is a different issue

 

I just find it a shame that old buildings can not be put back into use whether listed or not.

 

Can I ask you a question Steve, I know you said that the old grammar school was not listed aty listing was refused, how. We talked about the old villa, the bay horse the British Legion building all dating from the 1800s all listed,. The old grammar school was far more important  dating back to the 1500 (am I right) and no listing????

[Steve Parish]

Whether buildings are original or at least largely unaltered is a factor in listing decisions, so even buildings with very old bits can escape if they've been knocked about a bit (i.e. before protection of the built heritage became an issue).

[Dizzy]

 When did the protection of built heritage become an issue or into effect SteveP, any idea ?

Had the old Boteler School been knocked about inside in it's time then ? What exactly had they done to it and did it happen while it was still being used as a school or after the school moved to it's new bigger premises in Latchford ? 

I seem to remember that prior to it's demolition the council refused to allow anyone to go in to look and/or take photos.  I wonder why that was ?

Another factor in recent years re listing has been whether a building has been designed by a nationally know architect with other listed buildings credited to their name and being in a conservation area is 'supposed' to give more protection and help with getting listing status .

 

The sturdy, well built and 'well maintained and in good condition' locally listed Stockton Heath Primary School (which hadn't been knocked about since it was built and opened in 1910 and had remained the same (other than the dome thing being removed from the roof)) would probably be still standing today if it had it been inside the conservation area rather than just outside the border of it !!!  Maybe it would have also have got it's listing status further down the line as more other schools of a similar design got demolished    

 

It still annoys me when I think what the council did and HOW they did it.  Disgraceful that it was demolished and even more so considering the very very small number of people who actually wanted it gone, mainly being the council who were THE OWNERS, the string pullers and holders of the funding  !!

[Coffee]

 When did the protection of built heritage become an issue or into effect SteveP, any idea ?

 

Had the old Boteler School been knocked about inside in it's time then ? What exactly had they done to it and did it happen while it was still being used as a school or after the school moved to it's new bigger premises in Latchford ? 

I seem to remember that prior to it's demolition the council refused to allow anyone to go in to look and/or take photos.  I wonder why that was ?

 

Another factor in recent years re listing has been whether a building has been designed by a nationally know architect with other listed buildings credited to their name and being in a conservation area is 'supposed' to give more protection and help with getting listing status .

 

Steve, as far as I know the listing status has been relaxed recently not toughed up, with several buildings being taken off the register that have been significantly altered, wonder if Bewsey Old Hall still qualifies. for listing

 

The grammar school was  demolished not so long ago  - we are talking about the same building across the rd from Sainsbury petrol station - I watched it being pulled down, as far as I could see it was in tact internally, you could see the class rooms exposed as the building disappeared - I now wondering if I have any photos.

 

Can I ask, I know it was used as a council yard, was the school used as offices? Between its closure as a school what else had it been used for

 

Are you talking about the Priory in Cairo St Dizzy? That building fell down in a strong wind (that is one more listed building lost)  - I seem to recall a year or so previously an application to turn the cabinet works into a night club being rejected as it might damage the priory. - already said that someplace here, never mind I repeat myself

[Steve Parish]

 When did the protection of built heritage become an issue or into effect SteveP, any idea ?

 

Had the old Boteler School been knocked about inside in it's time then ? What exactly had they done to it and did it happen while it was still being used as a school or after the school moved to it's new bigger premises in Latchford ? 

I seem to remember that prior to it's demolition the council refused to allow anyone to go in to look and/or take photos.  I wonder why that was ?

 

 

As in another thread -

The grammar school? A bit of googling - anyone can do it - and "The building is in extremely poor condition and any preservation would require 75 per cent of it to be rebuilt. It is structurally unsuitable." "The best access to the development would mean that the building would have to be demolished."

 

"Approaches had been made to the Department of Heritage to secure listed status for the building. But Whitehall officials felt, while of local interest, the structure didn't merit (statutory) protection. As it stands, the building is in poor condition and would need to be largely rebuilt to be brought back into use"

 

Try wikipedia on history:

Although a limited number of 'ancient monuments' were given protection under the Ancient Monuments Protection Act 1882,^[4] there was reluctance to restrict the owners of occupied buildings in what they could do to their property. It was the damage to buildings caused by German bombing during World War II that prompted the first listing of buildings that were deemed to be of particular architectural merit.^[5] 300 members of the Royal Institute of British Architects and the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings were dispatched to prepare the list under the supervision of the Inspectorate of Ancient Monuments, with funding from the Treasury.^[6] The listings were used as a means of determining whether a particular building should be rebuilt if it was damaged by bombing,^[5] with varying degrees of success.^[6]

The basis of the current more comprehensive listing process was developed from the wartime system and was enacted by a provision in the Town and Country Planning Act 1947 covering England and Wales, and the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1947 covering Scotland. Listing was first introduced into Northern Ireland under the Planning (Northern Ireland) Order 1972. The listing process has since developed slightly differently in each part of the UK.

[Dizzy]

Didn't really answer my question though did it SteveP.  And yes I am aware how to google but thanks anyway.

 

So I'll ask again incase anyone knows

 

1) ..for the Boteler Grammer School building to be in such a bad state (ie you quote 75 per cent of it would have had to be rebuilt) .....'What exactly had they done to it and did it happen while it was still being used as a school or after the school moved to it's new bigger premises in Latchford ? 

 

Also... new question

 

2) When exactly (ie what year) were approaches first made to the Department of Heritage to secure listed status for the building and by who ?

 

Bit of info.....

Although founded in 1526 the original Boteler Boys School was replaced by the large impressive and very substantial looking building that we are now talking about was actually built and opened in 1863

 

By 1930's it was educating girls as well as boys.  The boys were moved to a new school built in Latchford (1940), the girls remained in the old one until moving to the 'Warrington High School for Girls' near Loushers Lane.  Not sure exactly when that was.... and I believe it was 1940 when original building/school became under the jurisdiction of the Warrington Local Authority. 

 

That's only 30 years before Warrington LA did a big bash of getting buildings listed round here so I guess either they didn't want to put that one forward or had already trashed it by then.  How on earth a building of such substance and build quality could have got into such a state that 75% of it would have needed rebuilding is beyond me.

 

PS Steve... glad to see you ignored the bit about the locally listed sturdy, well built and 'well maintained and in good condition' Stockton Heath school etc.    

[Coffee]

Didn't really answer my question though did it SteveP.  And yes I am aware how to google but thanks anyway.

 

So I'll ask again incase anyone knows

 

1) ..for the Boteler Grammer School building to be in such a bad state (ie you quote 75 per cent of it would have had to be rebuilt) .....'What exactly had they done to it and did it happen while it was still being used as a school or after the school moved to it's new bigger premises in Latchford ? 

 

Also... new question

 

2) When exactly (ie what year) were approaches first made to the Department of Heritage to secure listed status for the building and by who ?

 

Bit of info.....

Although founded in 1526 the original Boteler Boys School was replaced by the large impressive and very substantial looking building that we are now talking about was actually built and opened in 1863

 

By 1930's it was educating girls as well as boys.  The boys were moved to a new school built in Latchford (1940), the girls remained in the old one until moving to the 'Warrington High School for Girls' near Loushers Lane.  Not sure exactly when that was.... and I believe it was 1940 when original building/school became under the jurisdiction of the Warrington Local Authority. 

 

That's only 30 years before Warrington LA did a big bash of getting buildings listed round here so I guess either they didn't want to put that one forward or had already trashed it by then.  How on earth a building of such substance and build quality could have got into such a state that 75% of it would have needed rebuilding is beyond me.

 

PS Steve... glad to see you ignored the bit about the locally listed sturdy, well built and 'well maintained and in good condition' Stockton Heath school etc.    

 

 

So the building was not from the 1500s still it was a nice, i,impressive building, that Warrington Council allowed to get into such poor condition, although its roof was in tact, its walls did not need supporting, in fact it took several days to pull it down.

 

Wonder if  engineer who inspected the school  was the same one who inspected the priory and gave that the all clear?

 

Because a building is a conservation area does not protect it, an example is the Vicarage in Palmyra Square

[Steve Parish]

PS Steve... glad to see you ignored the bit about the locally listed sturdy, well built and 'well maintained and in good condition' Stockton Heath school etc.    

I ignored it because, having seen the cracks in the walls, and been in the basement and picked bits of rusty iron from the stanchions, I don't agree that it was in good condition. That's without considering the argument that it was not fit for the purpose - but I'll decline a debate on that, execpt to say that educational needs do change: St Ann's old schools in Dannett St were built in 1864 - and by the end of the 19th century the Victorians had described them as not fit for human habitation. They lasted till the 1950s!

 

The old vicarage in Palmyra Square is 1920s. So long as a new building fits in the context - Knightsbridge Court next door isn't a bad job - I can't see a problem with losing it to build another 5-storey block on that side of the square. Now if we could replace Palmyra House on the other side of it with something better...

 

I visited the Richard Rogers exhibition at the Royal Academy last week - he quotes the Athenian oath "I will leave the city no less beautiful than I found it" (the original was a bit more about empire-building than protecting heritage but you get the idea) - and I have to say that pastiche does nothing for me. Prince Charles objected to the modernist design for the extension to the national gallery - the "monstrous carbuncle" speech - and we ended up with a modern building trying to look old, complete with mock Corinthian columns, but still looking bland.

 

 

 

What Warrington needs is a decent modern "iconic" or at least "landmark" building - I'm not sure this below was it (original plan for the Modus site opposite Central Station), but at least it's not just another boring box. (I think the only modern Warrington building commended in Pevsner (The Buildings of England series) is the Royal Mail rail terminal next to the main line south of Hawleys Lane.)

 

[Coffee]

Because it is stupid Steve, it  often lacks common sense!

 

Take the old vicarage, what will putting up a new building achieve, do we really need more shops, offices, restaurants in the town center? Suggest you and your fellow Councillors take a walk round the town!

 

Then there is the environmental argument I already touched upon. OK new buildings can be more efficient to heat, but it takes many decades before any benefits are felt, by then new technology will make make it inefficient long before this happens.

 

Nice pics, but what did you replace the old grammar school with?, An access road!

 

It wouldn't be a first for a dilapidated building to be brought back to life, but it takes imagination and a will.

 

Why was the building in such poor condition anyway?

[Dizzy]

I keep asking the same about the Boteler old school but still no answer Coffee. Maybe you will have better luck.