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Bazj

Teachers on strike yet again

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Well each to their own opinions I guess.... personally I wasn't that electrician Sadako; I only employ them, which is a task in itself I can tell you. I guess then there is an argument for performance related pay. If you are a good teacher and get good results you get more money; if you are a crap teacher and get bad results you get less money or the sack....

 

It is true that a lot of contractors carry out bodged and rubbish work; but that is largely down to the contractors the schools employ..... I don't recall any complaints about my place so maybe they need to give me a call to sort things out properly....

and finally, if the contractors van was blocking you in and stopping you going home, it can't have been past 5pm; as most electricians would be on their third pint by that time!

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Correct, and standards will never improve until discipline is restored into the classroom and that requires government backing.

 

From what I've seen most parents don't give a toss about their kids as long as they are not getting under their feet.

 

Robbo....

 

most teachers do not support the restoration of corrective discipline in the classroom..... whenever I talk to teachers about getting the cane back in primary school or hour long detentions at the drop of a hat instead of telling someone to sit in a room over lunchtime or a 20 minute stop in after school; they look at me in horror....

 

Plus, government backing would not come for a restoration of corporal punishment as they are all soft on crime and punishment and have to remember that kids have human rights now too!

 

and as for the last statement..... and people say I generalise!

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A cracking post sadako and one that emphasises why some become teachers and others can only manage the level of an Instrument Technician or Electrician, :wink: and also highlighting the difference between those who are involved in teaching compared to those who only observe.

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A cracking post sadako and one that emphasises why some become teachers and others can only manage the level of an Instrument Technician or Electrician,

 Managing Director...... but don't let that make you feel too bad :lol:

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 all work men and electricians I know carry out botched jobs and are all perverts. You see it all the time on the television and read about it in the papers…it must be true.

 

Well I've scoured the internet and can find no trace of evidence to back up your claims that the TV and papers are reporting about electricians working on schools being perverts other than your claim above..... so I am thinking you may be making that up as schools do not allow workers to be left alone with kids in any area of a school unless they have been subject to an enhanced CRB check (which is what teachers have to pass too as I am sure you know) where I have had people working on schools who do not have the CRB (as they are now no longer required for contractors unless you visit the same school at least 4 times a month) they are accompanied at all times by a member of staff...

 

I did find however; many many cases of teachers preying on students including affairs, rapes and abuse.... and that is after they have passed a CRB check (at least 130 reported cases up to 2009 including Jeremy Forrest ) so be careful when lobbing those stones around that glass house

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Oh Baz, you seem to have misunderstood me. I was using the statement “…work men and electricians that I know carry out botched jobs and are all perverts”  to highlight how unreliable and pathetic it was to make generalisations about people in society. My apologies if you missed the point. I didn’t say that all electricians who work at schools were perverts. You made that up. I said “in my experience" and didn't mention that they were at schools. The claim I made was 100% true and I haven’t confirmed that I work in a school.

 

I am sorry if you took time out of your busy schedule to research about these perverts and then took further time in the working day to post on a forum. I couldn’t reply sooner as I was working but may I suggest the programme  ‘Homes from Hell’ or ‘Watchdog’. I personally find these programmes quite amusing and quite entertaining.

 

I did however take the time out just now (quick google really) to research the average electricians wage. Apparently the average is almost £32,000 which happens to be the same as a teacher with the top being more than what a teacher could earn on their pay scale.

 

Yes there are many teachers that have abused their position…the same as anyone else in any other profession. Again, I do believe that you missed the point as I was making a generalisation about ‘work men’ based on TV shows that I have seen and my own personal experiences. Stereotypes can be a dangerous thing and that is my point exactly.

 

With regards to performance related pay. It isn’t quite a simple as” If you are a good teacher and get good results you get more money; if you are a crap teacher and get bad results you get less money or the sack....”. I have nothing against performance related pay because I know that I am a good teacher. What does concern me is how an individual’s performance is calculated. Let’s take the ‘Baz J performance pay scale’:

 

Scenario 1:  Imagine that Mr Smith teaches in an affluent area. He isn’t arsed about his job and is a lazy teacher. He is given a class of 20 students, all of whom are gifted and talented. Each student was brought up by supportive parents and have been taught from day one the difference between right and wrong. They are disciplined appropriately at home and are independent thinkers and learners. They sit their exam and achieve a 100% A-B grades. Now because Mr Smith has had it easy, he is able to leave work at the end of the day. He hasn’t had to chase students to submit work and he hasn’t needed to put on any extra lessons to help them in their studies.

 

Scenario 2: Mrs Jones on the other hand teaches in one of England’s more deprived area. She loves her job and is determined to help her students. Due to funding cuts, she is given a class of 28. 3 students have Asperger’s syndrome, 5 are severely dyslexic, 1 has kidney problems and is in hospital on a regular basis, one is a single parent and 2 other students are in care. Mrs Jones works her a*** off to put on extra classes during lunch times and after school. She marks several drafts of essays to ensure that the students have grasped the subject. She also has issues with behaviour and attendance is poor despite her best efforts to phone home and retain them. The students sit their exam (with 1 not showing up because he’s in court). They achieve C, D and E grades.

The Baz J performance scale would then suggest that lazy Mr Smith gets rewarded for sitting on his backside. Mrs Jones’ pay however remains the same and gets hit with a warning by management despite having three times as much work to do and puts in extra hours to get the students to actually gain a qualification. How is that fair? Performance related pay needs to be carefully thought about and could only really be applied to the teachers performance in work rather than purely on grades.

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Well I am assuming you are a teacher as you have so much time to write long and detailed responses.... the crux of the matter is that teachers already get a fair wage and an above average fair wage in a lot of cases. They get lots of holidays in which they don't all do school work (some have second jobs in the summer or go off on jollys like everyone else) If they did work in the holidays; strike then, it would get more public support than screwing up everyone elses work life balance.

 

and as for pay and pensions; it isn't wrong to say that even after pay freezes and pension changes they will still be better off than a hell of a lot of people working in the private sector who do not get the opportunity to retire at 55 or 60

 

Now we obviously are going to disagree no matter what so I will leave my opinion at that

 

Regards

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Baz, it's 6pm so I think it is safe to say that I can post without being labeled as lazy.

 

Teachers coming into education now will be very lucky to retire at that age. I know that I certainly wont be.

 

The strike isn't just about pensions, it is also to do with workload and conditions. I can certainly relate to Mrs Jones so all that I can really do is to stick it out until I can't take any more. My argument became more about the generalisations that you make about teachers and wasn't really in retaliation to your point about pensions. Either way, teaching is so broad that for some teachers, the salary and holidays can easily be justified. For others, it can't. That is my opinion.

 

No hard feelings and I don't actually think that you are a pervert :wink:

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 Apparently the average is almost £32,000 which happens to be the same as a teacher with the top being more than what a teacher could earn on their pay scale

 

You make a good point sadako, To earn that as a teacher you would need to have been teaching for at least 7 years and have a degree, whereas you could become an electrician with just a GCSE in home economics. :wink:

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You make a good point sadako, To earn that as a teacher you would need to have been teaching for at least 7 years and have a degree, whereas you could become an electrician with just a GCSE in home economics. :wink:

 

shows how un-educated you are then Wolfie my old chap.... I did a five year apprenticeship and two years on site before gaining approved electrician status. A further two years two years would get technician status and then you have the on going training to meet new standards in testing and certification (often self-funded).... unlike primary school teachers of course where you just get to play all day and high school teachers who now give kids photocopied sheets (instead of actually getting them to write stuff) and the biggest bonus of all.... The internet.

 

Many pre-planned lessons are available to download for use on Smartboards which all meet current keystage standards.... just download them, add a bit of your own text here and there and then save them to re-play year on year in Smarts own notebook software...

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and I don't actually think that you are a pervert

 

aww thanks... means a lot! :wink:

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my old chap.... I did a five year apprenticeship and two years on site before gaining approved electrician status. ,

I think you are the old chap Baz, 5 year apprenticeships were scrapped in 1970. and methinks you are over qualified. I've worked with hundreds of electricians over the years, none of em have got as much as a school leaving certificate between them. The biggest problem they ever had was deciding what size cable to use.

I served my time as an Instrument tiffy, served 4 years apprenticeship and went straight out and worked on the oil rigs, Albrights, ICI and then my own business (yes as managing director :wink: ) calibrating autoclaves mainly for hospitals and I haven't even got an NVQ level 2.

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OK even though the dick fencing can be very amusing I feel that the most pertinent point to be raised in the previous posts is that if it is indeed true that teachers do work so hard during the school holidays, how come none of their strikes ever take place during one?

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Honestly a one day strike and the world comes to an end.

 

When I were a lad they had proper strikes. They went on strikes for months at a time,pickets outside the gate twenty four hours a day seven days a week, Blackouts when the miners went out on strike for hours at a time.People managed, kids still went to school or got looked after by a relative that was not working so mum and dad could man the picket line or get on with whatever job they could. Most of the time the strikes were announced ten minutes before the workers downed tools and walked out the door.

 

If people cannot organise for a child to looked after for one day even when given at least two weeks notice then I wonder how they would cope in an emergency.

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...and strikes are supposed to cause disruption.

But to whom, I suggest that parents, despite what many teachers may privately feel, are not the enemy.

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But to whom, I suggest that parents, despite what many teachers may privately feel, are not the enemy.

Correct, but like most other strikes it affects even those who may support the action.

 

But the most pertinent point for me was Evils.

 

"If people cannot organise for a child to be looked after for one day even when given at least two weeks notice then I wonder how they would cope in an emergency"

 

It's strange how parents will put up with many things that affect their children's education, but send the kids home for a day and all hell breaks out.

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Correct, but like most other strikes it affects even those who may support the action.

 

But the most pertinent point for me was Evils.

 

"If people cannot organise for a child to be looked after for one day even when given at least two weeks notice then I wonder how they would cope in an emergency"

 

It's strange how parents will put up with many things that affect their children's education, but send the kids home for a day and all hell breaks out.

It would be a good point if it made any sense.  People look after their children and organise childcare all year round, including the 200 or so days a year that teachers actually go in to work.  Many companies require more than 2 weeks notice for holidays and many parents have already taken or booked their annual allowance of holidays in order to accommodate the excessive school holidays to the best of their ability.  Self employed people simply have to bite the bullet and lose a days pay and risk letting down customers to boot.

 

Parents do not abrogate all their responsibilities to teachers, that's a farcical notion, nor do they crumble when faced with the adversity of strikes.  They do however rightly complain when they see their children's education being used as a lever in a bid to blackmail more money out of their taxes by a group of already well paid and extremely well treated civil servants.

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Well you don't like strikes Pj, so what would you have the teachers do when the government are not listening to them, they feel they have no choice, it sounds like you would take the right to withdraw labour away from them.?

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 to blackmail more money out of their taxes by a group of already well paid and extremely well treated civil servants.

Not sure more money comes into it.

 

"The government intend to scrap annual increments for teachers allowing them to rise up the pay scales.  Instead,  Gove believes headteachers should be given the discretion as to whether to award them or not"

 

It's more about,

"discussions to look into their workload and publish details of an independent assessment of their pension scheme - to determine whether rises in contributions and cuts in payments are necessary."

 

Considering the unions have been engaged in a work-to-rule  for more than a year now and Gove has made no attempt to discuss their concerns with them,.it seems fair that the next step should be a strike.

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No Kije  I would leave them with the right to withdraw labour just like most other employees, but I would expect them to work 260 days a year like the rest of us do for that privilege.   The point I make is that they have it pretty damned good comparatively but don't seem to like any kind of criticism of their actions which are deliberately designed to disrupt the lives of the parents that they have to work with in order to provide a full and rounded education of our children. 

 

Do you honestly believe that if Billy and Jenny Teacher were sat at Manchester airport awaiting a flight to take them abroad for the umpteenth time that year, heard over the tannoy that due to industrial action by the baggage controllers union their holiday would be put back for a day that they would tut, agree that the cause was worthwhile as the baggage workers deserved more money and that bank holiday was the perfect time to strike as strikes are meant to cause disruption and say no more about it.  If you do you are a bigger fool than you normally make of yourself on here.  Of course they would whinge, post complaints and write perfectly composed letters of disgust to the relevant bodies,  even though they would have, unlike the vast majority of us, 12 more weeks when they could go on holiday.

 

I can't believe you are here defending teachers when they appear to have failed you so miserably in the literacy department :wink:

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Not sure more money comes into it.

 

"The government intend to scrap annual increments for teachers allowing them to rise up the pay scales.  Instead,  Gove believes headteachers should be given the discretion as to whether to award them or not"

 

It's more about,

"discussions to look into their workload and publish details of an independent assessment of their pension scheme - to determine whether rises in contributions and cuts in payments are necessary."

 

Considering the unions have been engaged in a work-to-rule  for more than a year now and Gove has made no attempt to discuss their concerns with them,.it seems fair that the next step should be a strike.

so  all about money then

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