asperity Posted June 26, 2017 Report Share Posted June 26, 2017 Aluminium is used in some ships because of it's lightness, and it is used in passenger ships for the upper accomodation for that reason. In fact fast ferries are all aluminium construction so it can't be that much of a fire hazard in those circumstances. As far as the cladding is concerned, the fact that the aluminium seems to have been used to cover flammable material would appear to have made things worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Dave, whilst the combustability or otherwise of the cladding is open to question, it's the fact that cladding was used at all, that needs to be considered, as it allowed compartmentalisation to be by-passed. Now that the s**t has hit the fan, we are also learning that fire resistant doors weren't used in some buildings, again compromising the fire separation within the building. btw: as the political blame game begins, think we should note that most of these buildings were cladded on Tory Bliar's watch !.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted June 29, 2017 Report Share Posted June 29, 2017 No doubt part of the green agenda to save heating costs Obs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted June 29, 2017 Report Share Posted June 29, 2017 Yep, see Article 6 of the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive (2002/91/EC) ( http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32002L0091&from=EN) and the recast directive - Article 7 of the EU Energy Performance Directive (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32010L0031&from=EN). Transposition will have been in part through Building Regulations as well as the regulations on Energy Performance Certificates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2017 What I find amazing about all this, is the criticism that the authorities are not giving the true figure of lives lost. Well if the authorities, and perhaps even the landlord, didn't know the identities of residents due to their illegal presence in the UK, there will not have been on anyone's radar, and thus totally unknown, and thus impossible to identify. It's a measure of the state of the Nation, when "victims" are asked to come forward, with a promise that their immigration status will not be investigated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted June 29, 2017 Report Share Posted June 29, 2017 There may even be some "ghost tenants" who have been attracting benefits for landlords & not living there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Apparently,aluminium cladding with a plastic core was used on Grenfel Tower to save £300 k so somebody will be held to account. As for the Falklands ,some of the ships like the Sheffield used an amalgam of aluminium & magnesium especially in the superstructure & coupled with exocet strikes this alloy became an inferno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Anything will burn given enough heat and oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Davy51 said: with exocet strikes this alloy became an inferno. The summary of the Falkland war lessons from the US Navy disagrees, see page 60 of (handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA133333). In particular HMS Sheffield had a steel structure but the problem was the design criteria for minimum cost instead of maximum survivability. Aluminium doesn't burn much below steel in temperature but it does deform and soften earlier so it needs physical support. I have no idea what the characteristics of the alloy were of course. I am afraid that the testing for fire resistance of samples seems to be motivated by something other than finding the truth as they are being done with the core of the Aluminium Composite Material after it has been removed. The building design will have been done with the total composite in place and I would expect that the availability of oxygen must be much lower when covered on both sides by a sheet of Aluminium! That this is the test is confirmed by https://www.gov.uk/government/news/statement-from-the-independent-expert-advisory-panel-30-june-2017 . It says that the test is "in line with the requirement of the Building Regulations guidance", later on they talk of building regulation requirement. The difference between guidance and requirement is far from subtle in this context. I suspect that the problem is not as simple as we have been told so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 I must have read a different article then about the Falklands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 My recollection is similar to yours Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted June 30, 2017 Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 Practically the whole body and structure of a modern airliner is aluminium. If aluminium were such a flammable material we wouldn't have thousands of planes in the sky every hour of every day filled with thousands of people, it would be deemed insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted June 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2017 7 hours ago, asperity said: Anything will burn given enough heat and oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 We don't normally expect to be hit by the heat source of a missile when we go on holiday. I doubt even a steel plane would save us but we are a pretty trusting lot & don't buy a plane ticket with the expectation of getting shot at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted July 1, 2017 Report Share Posted July 1, 2017 sounds like they used Magnalium in the design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Notice the Grenfell "victims" are being given amnesty from prosecution for some cases where tenants illegally sub-let their properties; also amnesty from prosecution for entering the UK illegally (where applicable). So if you want to dodge the law, become a "victim". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Perhaps that's an admission they don't know how many people were actually living there. Dozens of unknowns squeezed into flats or ,on the other hand, non existent tenants who someone was claiming benefits for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 2 hours ago, observer said: Notice the Grenfell "victims" are being given amnesty from prosecution for some cases where tenants illegally sub-let their properties; also amnesty from prosecution for entering the UK illegally (where applicable). So if you want to dodge the law, become a "victim". Why "victims" instead of victims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Because the lack of certainty about who was in the building means that it is possible that some who claim to have been in the building or normally resident there could be failing to tell the truth and there is no means of detecting it. I am sure it was not intended to denote a lack of empathy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 Actually Confused - both !! Watching the antics down in Londonistan, the tail is well and truly wagging the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused52 Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 What are peoples views on the Community, assisted by Labour MP's, wanting to dictate who chairs the Inquiry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 As I said, tail wagging the dog, which appears to be how Government is run at the moment; get rent a mob in London to protest and Gov bends over backwards to accommodate them. Knee jerk governance based on sentiment, and destined to end in tears before bedtime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted July 5, 2017 Report Share Posted July 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Confused52 said: What are peoples views on the Community, assisted by Labour MP's, wanting to dictate who chairs the Inquiry? Disgusting, but not surprising the way that mob rule seems to be taking over from democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Sid Posted July 6, 2017 Report Share Posted July 6, 2017 Thought democracy was mob rule. Those who have the majority rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted July 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2017 Clearly not the case, as the politicians prepare to renege on the Brexit. referendum. But the "mobs" referred to, are the usual suspects in Londonistan; with the free time to knock up a banner and seize a photo opportunity, getting air time out of all proportion to their unrepresentative numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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