What's she got to do ?

[Davy51]

It seems that a couple of housing associations in Salford have stopped removing  cladding  from buildings until the government clarifies the position of which is dangerous & which is not. 

[Bazj]

On 6/30/2017 at 3:46 PM, Davy51 said:

Apparently,aluminium cladding with a plastic core was used on Grenfel Tower to save £300 k so somebody will be held to account.

There is a difference between saving taxpayers money on cladding a building using products that had supposedly been tested and were on an approved list of materials that could be used and deliberately using a material that was banned and known to be flammable 

Being "held to account" after the fact when in all possibility the person who specified or allowed the materials to be used was doing so with the best intentions may be a little hard to prove.

Yes the fire was a massive tragedy and a wake up call for designers and architects, but if you were able to shave 300 grand off a project by using a product that "looked the same" and was supposedly approved for the job (and by the looks of the test results after the event, was used previously on over a hundred other tower blocks) why wouldn't you if you weren't aware of the potential dangers you were allowing to be installed?

 

[observer]

Think we've discovered that nothing is entirely fire proof,  but the issue of cladding is that it by-passes the compartmentalisation of the building. I believe it should have "fire stops" fitted, between floors; but I have to question it's use at all, in the first place.    

[Davy51]

I couldn't agree more Baz, but we live in a time of litigation & accountability. The same situation with cladding may never even arise again.

[asperity]

2 hours ago, observer said:

Think we've discovered that nothing is entirely fire proof,  but the issue of cladding is that it by-passes to compartmentalisation of the building. I believe it should have "fire stops" fitted, between floors; but I have to question it's use at all, in the first place.    

The heavy hand of the EU regulators is all over this in the name of energy conservation/climate change.

[observer]

... and now the criticisms extend to the Fire Service, saying it took half an hour before turntable ladders arrived at the scene; clearly these idiots haven't compared the maximum extension of a TTL against the height of a multi storey building.  Such fires are fought from INSIDE these buildings using internal water supplies from dry riser systems (if fitted).   An internal dry sprinkler system, throughout the building, fed by the FB, could have helped. But the external cladding was clearly the cause of the accelerated fire spread, and other than external wall drenchers, would be inaccessible to fire crews.  So basically, the moral of the storey is don't use cladding at all.  

[Confused52]

The external insulation and the choice of windows as well as the firebreaks are what I would look at. So far all they have looked at is the weather-screen cladding on the outside. The story of someone trying to open the window to get rid of smoke and finding the window frame melting seems terrifying.

[Evil Sid]

I would have thought that building them to a height that current equipment could easily reach would be a better solution.

[observer]

High rise is the only answer to increasing populations in urban areas and increasing housing demand; unless of course, you want urban sprawl into the green belt.     

[fugtifino]

Doesn't have to be high rise, Barcelona has perhaps the highest population density in Europe yet there are few buildings over around eight storeys.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.3931146,2.1913569,3a,75y,200.11h,97.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOqdhuFDfE7eSWY2flmU44Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Oh, and this:

 

 

[observer]

Think 8 storeys would be considered "high rise"; certainly higher than a TTL.    

[Davy51]

Wouldn't a solution be to put external ,enclosed fire escapes or escapes with heat shields between stairs & walls on these buildings.? It may be old fashioned but it may have been an idea that worked.

[observer]

They supposed to have enclosed staircases, with fire separation from the rest of the building; but these are unlikely to help a disabled person given a tenancy at the top.  Until cladding was introduced, fire spread was restricted within such buildings due to compartmentalisation, so most fires would be confined to the room/flat of origin.   

[observer]

..... and we now have criticism of the FB advise to tenants to stay put, in the building. This is standard advice based on the expectation that compartmentalisation will confine a fire to a single unit.   However, those in the building probably wouldn't see it, but those they may have been in phone contact with, outside the building would have seen the rate of fire spread via the cladding. In which case, common sense would dictate evacuation of the building. Sometimes folk have to think for themselves.    

[asperity]

Is that Facebook or Fire Brigade advice Obs? There's so many acronyms flying about these days it's hard to tell .

[observer]

    It's a wonder face book wasn't involved, given the way some folk are obsessed with it !   

[Davy51]

I suppose one of the hardest expectations is that people in a tower block evacuation during a fire will carry out the evac in a panic situation in an orderley manner.

[observer]

Not sure that "orderly" could ever apply in that situation Dave.     

[Davy51]

Exactly, but "orderly" is what evacuation procedures are based on.

[observer]

Both "orderly" and "procedure" would imply some kind of pre-planned, centrally controlled situation, as on a ship.    

[Evil Sid]

All well and good having a procedure for evacuation, but that assumes that all the residents are familiar with it. Given the likely turnover of residents in a rented accommodation block, even a small one, how many would be familiar with what to do in event of a fire or similar or be even aware that there was such a procedure. How many of the "letting agents" staff would know the procedure or be aware there was one and pass it on to the new tenant.

Last thing on anybodies mind when moving into such a place would be what to do if the place was on fire. Where the nearest shops are, what the bus routes are, can i get the furniture up the stairs etc. Very few would be thinking about the quickest way out in an emergency apart from jumping out the window.

[Davy51]

Considering we are currently in the EU & are welcoming all & sundry to our shores to work in the black economy & plunder our benefits i would expect most flats carry some form of multi lingual  basic instruction notice.

If i go on holiday to Spain ,the first notice i see next to the fuse box is advising of the rules of the apartment/hotel including emergency procedures & all breakages will be paid for.

[observer]

Basic common sense, when entering any strange building, always make a mental note of your means of escape - just in case.   

[Dizzy]

I don't think I have ever done that in any building I have been in   I will now though.

I was in the Golden Square today and wouldn't even have know how to get out of there other than through the main exits....are there other exit routes ?  

As for getting out of Ikea in an emergency situation......time to take note when I next go there as it takes me forever to find my way about in the calm never mind trying to get out in a hurry !!!

 

[asperity]

The shops in Golden Square have back doors I believe (for stock deliveries). IKEA is Swedish so I'm sure they have a Scandinavian solution to any emergency (inte panik!!!)