P J Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36138337 I hope there are some members on here who posted vile allegations and lies about the 96 victims who are hanging their heads in shame but I doubt they have the common decency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy51 Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 To be honest ,when you see the old footage of the day it always looks as if they were trying to get too many people into a stadium that was nowhere near big enough. They got away with overcrowding at Odsal in 1954 but the wire fences between the fans & pitch were asking for trouble. Do we know yet with who the buck stops PJ ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 The inquest has made clear who was at fault and also who wasn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 Observer, anything to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I notice that today the Murdoch rags have tried to pretend this didn't happen on their front pages, much like the members on here who were vile and wrong and very vocal a while back but seem to have crawled back under their rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/27/sun-times-front-pages-ignore-hillsborough-verdict?CMP=share_btn_fb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 It's good to see justice done, at last. All credit to the families and supporters of the 96; without their steadfast determination this would never have happened. Wonder if Kelvin MacKenzie will apologise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I can't help but wonder if the pendulum has swung the other way and to much blame is being put on the emergency services. The gates were open to prevent a possible crush outside, I am sure the iverpool fans were not stood in an orderly queue as the game was about to start. Tragically the there was an oversight and no one shut a gate inside. The reason for the crush was the stamped of the crowd so how can the it be said that there was no blame on the fans. If I pushed you over in the street PJ because I was in a hurry, whose fault would it be. Having said that I was at Hillsborough weeks before that tragedy, it was a nightmare to get in, the police struggled to maintain order, we ended , up crushed against a wall by a police horse, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fugtifino Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about this tw.. er, gentleman: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sir-bernard-ingham-who-labelled-7837120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I can't help but wonder if the pendulum has swung the other way and to much blame is being put on the emergency services. The gates were open to prevent a possible crush outside, I am sure the iverpool fans were not stood in an orderly queue as the game was about to start. Tragically the there was an oversight and no one shut a gate inside. The reason for the crush was the stamped of the crowd so how can the it be said that there was no blame on the fans. If I pushed you over in the street PJ because I was in a hurry, whose fault would it be. Having said that I was at Hillsborough weeks before that tragedy, it was a nightmare to get in, the police struggled to maintain order, we ended , up crushed against a wall by a police horse, Are you completely stupid or just pretending to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianR Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I was there that day as was my brother. It was a complete mess up from minute one. I was allowed with my friend decked head to toe in Liverpool stuff to walk all the way up to the wrong terrace acting on instructions previously given. The turnstiles were too narrow, then when you got through them you could go where you wanted. A nice gap in an adjacent wall was left open despite having a gate on it. I was 17, hadn't been there before and naturally gravitated down the tunnel as I could see the goal there. Gates on that tunnel were not used, signs didn't direct you elsewhere and no one was organising it. The slope on that tunnel was steeper than it is now and gravity in a crush would make matters worse. It was very dark and narrow as well. There was a wall either side of the tunnel when you exited it that stopped you going sideways and thus directed you to the front where I stood for 20 mins before realising I couldn't see anything. The naivety of youth eh but probably saved my life. Fences stopped people going sideways within the pens and barriers were not of the standard seen in other grounds (Id stood on most of the major terraces at that point). Exit gates at the front were locked. Fans thrown back in when they did get out and despite the obvious cries for help, police just stood there. 1 ambulance got onto the pitch. After being stuck for over 3 hours. I was left to find my own way out try to avoid going where people had died. The blame has quite rightly been apportioned and way too late. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Are you completely stupid or just pretending to be? PJ, I think you find that on this forum you take the crown when it comes to stupidity. Lets take the statement from Adrian who was there Whose fault was it gates were open, ground was not up to standard, who maintained the ground, put up the barriers and cages the police or the ambulance service, who was causing the crush outside the ground. Not excusing the police or the ambulance service for their response, but was there not disturbances before the match. When the crush started it could have looked like another disturbance at first, I do not know I was there that day as was my brother. It was a complete mess up from minute one. I was allowed with my friend decked head to toe in Liverpool stuff to walk all the way up to the wrong terrace acting on instructions previously given. The turnstiles were too narrow, then when you got through them you could go where you wanted. A nice gap in an adjacent wall was left open despite having a gate on it. I was 17, hadn't been there before and naturally gravitated down the tunnel as I could see the goal there. Gates on that tunnel were not used, signs didn't direct you elsewhere and no one was organising it. The slope on that tunnel was steeper than it is now and gravity in a crush would make matters worse. It was very dark and narrow as well. There was a wall either side of the tunnel when you exited it that stopped you going sideways and thus directed you to the front where I stood for 20 mins before realising I couldn't see anything. The naivety of youth eh but probably saved my life. Fences stopped people going sideways within the pens and barriers were not of the standard seen in other grounds (Id stood on most of the major terraces at that point). Exit gates at the front were locked. Fans thrown back in when they did get out and despite the obvious cries for help, police just stood there. 1 ambulance got onto the pitch. After being stuck for over 3 hours. I was left to find my own way out try to avoid going where people had died. The blame has quite rightly been apportioned and way too late. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Right Milky, we just had the longest , most thorough inquest in British history, with over 600 witnesses from all sides called to give evidence. They came to their conclusions after much deliberation. Then some half witted loon decides he knows better. Tell me, what special skill or knowledge of events qualifies you to make this decision to fly in the face of all the evidence? Do yourself a favour, go read the findings, come back and apologise and then you may look like less of a tit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Right Milky, we just had the longest , most thorough inquest in British history, with over 600 witnesses from all sides called to give evidence. They came to their conclusions after much deliberation. Then some half witted loon decides he knows better. Tell me, what special skill or knowledge of events qualifies you to make this decision to fly in the face of all the evidence? Do yourself a favour, go read the findings, come back and apologise and then you may look like less of a tit. You comment on various subjects from immigration, to economy, to crime, do you have specialist skills in all of them, If not why do you comment? The weakest link of the inquest is that the jury were not specialists either. The original inquest proved not to be correct. Why should I apologies? All I am pointing out is that the circumstance were difficult. What should have the police done that day, left the crowds to be crushed outside? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Read the facts then come back, I can't be arsed spoon feeding you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asperity Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 Milky, save your energy. PJ is always right about everything so there's no point in arguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted April 27, 2016 Report Share Posted April 27, 2016 I missed most of the news about it yesterday but have seen some today. It's good that the families have finally got the outcome they wanted and one they have battled towards for 27 years but it's clearly not over from what reports were saying today. Surely there has to be a point where a line is finally drawn though so that families and others affected by that awful day can move on some way It must be so terrible for all those who were there on the day to see all the actual footage time and time again and to be reminded of it all Sorry as I know that maybe I've not worded it very well but I couldn't think of any other way to say it. No disrespect meant to anyone at all.....RIP 96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Milky, save your energy. PJ is always right about everything so there's no point in arguing. Maybe I only comment on subjects I feel I am right about, in this instance the whole weight of the longest, most thorough inquest in our history backs me up whereas Milky has only his own imagination to fuel his fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732 Maybe I am wasting my time, like asperity says you have a reputation for stubbornness and unwillingness to take other peoples view on board but.... While the original verdict was clearly incorrect blaming just the fans was clearly wrong, but blaming the police solely is i my view just wrong too given the circumstances, after all the whole reason the gate was open the crowd was disorderly so how can you say that the crowd, had no bearing on the disaster. Alcohol, how can anyone say with any certainty alcohol was not an influence to some degree, anyone who has been to a first division/premiere league match knows that drinking want on before and during matches. The fans might not be late but there was a delay in getting them in the ground. Now the police, OK there was failings in the policing and lots of people complained the police stood by, but how do you tell the difference between a crush and crowd disorder? I guess where you stood made a difference. Don't forget the gates were locked. In my mind - that is only my thoughts and no expert but I am entitled to them - the design of the stadium was the major reason this happened, policing failed that day, maybe with a more experienced commander in place things might be different, The report asks were the fans to blame, well what fans? These that died and got injured that day no of course not, these that stampeded into the stadium? Point out if it was not for them the crush would not have happened but they did not do it on purpose. Dizzy I suspect no one will end up being charged for what happened, in a way I think it be wrong to single out individuals for what I feels is a set of very unfortunate circumstances, but for the cover up later, people want out of their way to make up stories and alter evidence as far as i understand. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Your view is meaningless unless backed up with fact. In your initial post on this you claimed that there was a fan stamped (sic) I presume you meant stampede. Would you at least provide some evidence of a crowd stampede being a causal effect at the disaster? Even evidence of a stampede would be a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Your view is meaningless unless backed up with fact. In your initial post on this you claimed that there was a fan stamped (sic) I presume you meant stampede. Would you at least provide some evidence of a crowd stampede being a causal effect at the disaster? Even evidence of a stampede would be a start. I have news for you PJ, your views are meaningless also! You want evidence 96 people died, 766 injured, if there was not these pushing from the back there would be no deaths or injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianR Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 Cant believe I'm reading some of this. My previous comment was a summary. I left out loads which the inquest didn't. Lets kill some things for starters, - In 1988 the semi had a cordon prior to the turnstiles. That would have provided a filter and broken up the approach to the turnstiles. None such cordon in 1989 - In 1988 the police closed the tunnel gates when it was full. Didn't in 1989. - People were drinking but the numerous (hundreds) of statements taken decided it wasn't a factor i.e. it had no effect on the cause. - The police opened gate C three times with no thought as to what happened afterwards. - We were told to go to the nearest part of the ground when we got off the coach. It wasn't correct. Police determined where the coaches went. Oh and to get us to Sheffield they sent us to Leeds first! - The police refused to consider a delayed kick off. instead they just opened a gate. - People screaming with their faces crushed against the fence is not a "disturbance". There is enough video / photos evidence of this to prove it. Police just stood around doing nothing. - 1 ambulance made it onto the pitch. The police failed to declare a major incident despite fatalities having already occurred. Only 14 of the 96 were admitted to hospital. I could go on and on and on. I suggest you read the independent committee's report that covers it all. I have and there could only be one possible outcome of the inquests 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P J Posted April 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 I have news for you PJ, your views are meaningless also! You want evidence 96 people died, 766 injured, if there was not these pushing from the back there would be no deaths or injuries. the stampede you claim occurred, what evidence do you have of a stampede? You are wrong and you know it. The inquest has proved this to be so. The famies and friends and fellow fans have had 27 years of idiots like you blaming them for the death of the 96 victims and even when it's been proven to be the case that they were unlawfully killed by the very individuals and groups who were actually responsible for kieeping them safe and well they still have to see and hear the unfounded accusations and vile comments you continue to make. So before I move on to your next bit of bile show me some evidence of a crowd stampede or concede it didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milky Posted April 28, 2016 Report Share Posted April 28, 2016 the stampede you claim occurred, what evidence do you have of a stampede? You are wrong and you know it. The inquest has proved this to be so. The famies and friends and fellow fans have had 27 years of idiots like you blaming them for the death of the 96 victims and even when it's been proven to be the case that they were unlawfully killed by the very individuals and groups who were actually responsible for kieeping them safe and well they still have to see and hear the unfounded accusations and vile comments you continue to make. So before I move on to your next bit of bile show me some evidence of a crowd stampede or concede it didn't happen. So how did the people get injured and killed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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